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NATO is a Bargain for the U.S.

Hawkeye10 said:
And we put the CIA in to start an anti Moscow revolution when we knew that the place is corrupt from start to finish, and has only very rarely managed to get anything done right.

DUMB.
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No truth to that at all.
 
PoS said:
NATO is the single biggest reason for the renewal of the cold war between Russia and the West. The sooner its disbanded the sooner there will be peace.
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Jack Hays said:
No truth to that at all.
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I think, and this is just a hunch, Vladimir Putin might also be responsible.....

There might be some truth to it, but all in all its unsurprising things in the Ukraine turned out the way they have
 
PoS said:
NATO is the single biggest reason for the renewal of the cold war between Russia and the West. The sooner its disbanded the sooner there will be peace.
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And how, in your view, has NATO done this?
 
Jack Hays said:
And how, in your view, has NATO done this?
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NATO had the nerve of accepting new members who voluntarily, on their free decision applied for joining, instead of respecting Putin's view that all countries next to Russia aren't independent, don't have the right to make decisions without consulting Russia, and are generally just Russia's backyard.

Much like the West was so hostile and aggressive towards Nazi Germany in 1938, by actually taking the position that Czechoslovakia and Poland have a right to make decisions as independent nations without submitting to Germany.

So when that's the view, sure, NATO is responsible for the new "Cold War". :p


Seriously, to the OP: I feel Germany could do a lot more on the field of defense. Our forces are in a pitiful state. They can barely fulfil their duty of national defense in peace time. If there was a ground war, the German army could defend a front line of maybe 20-40km only. If Russia invaded in the worst case, the German army would have to fire flares, else the advancing Russians wouldn't even find them.

I'm glad we can rely on American support and defense so far, but IMO, that's a job we should be able to do on our own. Not against America, mind you, but as partners.
 
German guy said:
NATO had the nerve of accepting new members who voluntarily, on their free decision applied for joining, instead of respecting Putin's view that all countries next to Russia aren't independent, don't have the right to make decisions without consulting Russia, and are generally just Russia's backyard.

Much like the West was so hostile and aggressive towards Nazi Germany in 1938, by actually taking the position that Czechoslovakia and Poland have a right to make decisions as independent nations without submitting to Germany.

So when that's the view, sure, NATO is responsible for the new "Cold War". :p


Seriously, to the OP: I feel Germany could do a lot more on the field of defense. Our forces are in a pitiful state. They can barely fulfil their duty of national defense in peace time. If there was a ground war, the German army could defend a front line of maybe 20-40km only. If Russia invaded in the worst case, the German army would have to fire flares, else the advancing Russians wouldn't even find them.

I'm glad we can rely on American support and defense so far, but IMO, that's a job we should be able to do on our own. Not against America, mind you, but as partners.
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you lost your chance decades ago but unfortunately the west waited too long to take action against nazi germany,as usual
 
German guy said:
I fail to understand what you're trying to say.
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considering your newest political thoughts about immigrants and European policy about it,it is normal for you not to understand
 
German guy said:
I fail to understand what you're trying to say.
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nazi germany is the reason you dont have a military, not only that but the german far right is back on the rise

Throughout its postwar history, Germany somehow managed to resist the temptations of right-wing populism. Not any longer. On March 13, the “Alternative for Germany” (AfD)—a party that has said it may be necessary to shoot at migrants trying to enter the country illegally and that has mooted the idea of banning mosques—scored double-digit results in elections in three German states; in one, Saxony-Anhalt, the party took almost a quarter of the vote. For some observers, the success of the AfD is just evidence of Germany’s further “normalization”: other major countries, such as France, have long had parties that oppose European integration and condemn the existing political establishment for failing properly to represent the people—why should Germany be an exception?

Such complacency is unjustified, for at least two reasons: the AfD has fed off and in turn encouraged a radical street movement, the “Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West,” or Pegida, that has no equivalent elsewhere in Europe. And perhaps most important, the AfD’s warnings about the “slow cultural extinction” of Germany that supposedly will result from Chancellor Angela Merkel’s welcoming of more than a million refugees have been echoed by a number of prominent intellectuals. In fact, the conceptual underpinnings for what one AfD ideologue has called “avant-garde conservatism” can be found in the recent work of several mainstream German writers and philosophers. Never since the end of the Nazi era has a right-wing party enjoyed such broad cultural support. How did this happen?
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Behind the New German Right by Jan-Werner Müller | NYR Daily | The New York Review of Books
 
I believe I read some where, that US forces in Europe live rent free and either get their utilities paid or a heavy rebate. Plus they dont pay for the cleanup when and if they leave a base.
 
dimensionallava said:
nazi germany is the reason you dont have a military, not only that but the german far right is back on the rise



Behind the New German Right by Jan-Werner Müller | NYR Daily | The New York Review of Books
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As the article says, it's a "normalization". When the US can afford a Trump, why can't Germany afford an AFD, without the sky falling?

And yes, Germany refuses to take responsibility in military terms, because too many people have adopted a naive pacifism after WW2. However, the pitiful state of the German forces is a post-1990 development. Before 1990, the West-German forces weren't so bad.
 
Medusa said:
considering your newest political thoughts about immigrants and European policy about it,it is normal for you not to understand
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Naw, I'm pretty sure it's because you don't make much sense.
 
German guy said:
As the article says, it's a "normalization". When the US can afford a Trump, why can't Germany afford an AFD, without the sky falling?

And yes, Germany refuses to take responsibility in military terms, because too many people have adopted a naive pacifism after WW2. However, the pitiful state of the German forces is a post-1990 development. Before 1990, the West-German forces weren't so bad.
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So your asking me why cant germany be led by a neo nazi? and also why cant germany have giant military with said nazi in charge of it? Is that a serious question?
 
dimensionallava said:
So your asking me why cant germany be led by a neo nazi? and also why cant germany have giant military with said nazi in charge of it? Is that a serious question?
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OMG, what a nonsense.

Where do you get the idea from that Germany could again be led by a neo Nazi in the foreseeable future? Maybe you should stop reading so many comic books.
 
German guy said:
OMG, what a nonsense.

Where do you get the idea from that Germany could again be led by a neo Nazi in the foreseeable future? Maybe you should stop reading so many comic books.
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you just asked me whats wrong with AFD, a neo nazi political party, being in charge of germany?
 
Jack Hays said:
The Know-Nothings want the U.S. out of NATO. That would be a bad deal.

President Obama and Donald Trump rarely agree on foreign policy. Yet they share one core belief: Our closest allies in Europe are exploiting U.S. military might.
Trump says NATO should be renegotiated: It is “obsolete” and “unfair . . . to the United States . . . because we pay a disproportionate share.”
Obama has criticized Trump’s stance. Yet for years the president has been conducting his own NATO renegotiation — including demanding European leadership in the Libyan operation and telling Prime Minister David Cameron that if Britain wants to maintain the Anglo-American “special relationship,” it must increase defense spending to the recommended NATO minimum of 2 percent of gross domestic product. His explanation? “Free riders aggravate me.”
But Trump and Obama are both wrong. Although more foreign policy spending is always welcome, Europe already assumes more than its fair share of the regional security burden. It invests not only in its military but also in crucial geo-economic and institutional instruments that the United States does not possess — but needs. In this respect, the United States freerides on European power. . . .



The United States is riding Europe’s superpower coattails


It’s a misperception that allies are exploiting U.S. military might.


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There can be no question that Nato is a major stabilizing factor. That the US pays more for this security advantage than the other winners is a historical aberration that we can increasingly no longer accept. That is well known within our allies' political elites.

But they are under enormous unrelated pressures. Though, the problems are of their own making, they are nevertheless nearly intractable and are substantial blocks to higher not to speak of meaningful levels of military or financial assistance. In Europe only France and the UK have noteworthy forces, but are increasingly bowing to demands from social programs. In countries like Germany long established policies of free riding have nurtured whole theories to justify the embarrassing behavior for the populations. Repeated and refined ovee decades the citizens have come to believe that military is evil and international security would be the automatic outcome of diplomatic jawboning, if only the USA were peaceful. While a little exaggerated, this discription is pretty close to the situation on the ground.

Under these conditions it will take time, but we must keep up the pressure, while forming a more stable and collectively global system of security.
 
dimensionallava said:
you just asked me whats wrong with AFD, a neo nazi political party, being in charge of germany?
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Well, if that's your concern, I can ease your fears:

1) The AFD is not a neo Nazi party.

And 2) it will not be in power in Germany ever, at very least not for the next few decades. They can be happy enough if they win 15% of the votes on national level.
 
German guy said:
Well, if that's your concern, I can ease your fears:

1) The AFD is not a neo Nazi party.

And 2) it will not be in power in Germany ever, at very least not for the next few decades. They can be happy enough if they win 15% of the votes on national level.
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well as long as you "promise" germany wont be run by another hitler for "atleast a few decades".... sure have some nukes need any zyklon b while were at it? lol, meanwhile your fellow germans are beating up religous minorities in the street, and patrolling their neighborhoods.

and towns like jamel still exist

 
dimensionallava said:
well as long as you "promise" germany wont be run by another hitler for "atleast a few decades".... sure have some nukes need any zyklon b while were at it? lol, meanwhile your fellow germans are beating up religous minorities in the street, and patrolling their neighborhoods.

and towns like jamel still exist

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I'm pretty sure the number of such incidents is much lower in Germany than in many other countries. Germany is a stable republic and not in the danger of being overtaken by extremists any time soon.

Can someone please untrash this thread? The degree of trolling here becomes annoying.
 
German guy said:
I'm pretty sure the number of such incidents is much lower in Germany than in many other countries. Germany is a stable republic and not in the danger of being overtaken by extremists any time soon.
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you could say the same thing about germany in 1933? what's your point?
 
German guy said:
Actually, I fail to see what your "point" supposedly is. If you have one, you have failed making it.
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nazi germany is the reason why germany has no real military, the same with japan you said "thats all in the past" i showed you that nazis are still very active and growing (depsite it basically being illegal to be one) and your response is "germany is a stable republic" and i said germany was relatively stable before hitler as well.

so how about you focus on getting your fellow germans to stop attacking minorities in the streets, before you start complaining about not having nukes.
 
dimensionallava said:
nazi germany is the reason why germany has no real military, the same with japan you said "thats all in the past" i showed you that nazis are still very active and growing (depsite it basically being illegal to be one) and your response is "germany is a stable republic" and i said germany was relatively stable before hitler as well.

so how about you focus on getting your fellow germans to stop attacking minorities in the streets, before you start complaining about not having nukes.
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your english is bad enough to understand :2razz:
 
dimensionallava said:
nazi germany is the reason why germany has no real military, the same with japan you said "thats all in the past" i showed you that nazis are still very active and growing (depsite it basically being illegal to be one) and your response is "germany is a stable republic" and i said germany was relatively stable before hitler as well.

so how about you focus on getting your fellow germans to stop attacking minorities in the streets, before you start complaining about not having nukes.
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The authorities estimate the number of violent neo-Nazis in Germany at 40,000. On a population of 80 million.

There are fringe nuts in Germany. So what? There are fringe nuts in every free country.

What country are you from? Doesn't matter, I'm pretty sure that the number of violent radicals is much larger there.


Why the heck am I even dignifying this parade of trolls with a reply? No idea. Perhaps too much coffee.
 
German guy said:
The authorities estimate the number of violent neo-Nazis in Germany at 40,000. On a population of 80 million.

There are fringe nuts in Germany. So what? There are fringe nuts in every free country.

What country are you from? Doesn't matter, I'm pretty sure that the number of violent radicals is much larger there.
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the original nazis were extremely small as well, and in 1933 they weren't outlawed and in hiding, even at their peak nazis only made up about 7% of the entire population. Even if you could somehow guarantee there wasn't single nazi or even a single racist in all of deutschland you still wont get nukes.... regardless of anyone's opinion here, i dont even think president trump can change that
 
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