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Brussels 'March Against Fear' cancelled due to... Fear

Peter King said:
And even then, this is not a one way street (just coming from the immigrants), this is a two way street.
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Uh, no.. Immigrants have absolutely NO right to force their new host country to change to suit their fancy... 0, none.
 
Grant said:
This 'most' doesn't really solve the problem though, does it?Yes, blame the Dutch for their lack of hospitality. Didn't they understand the culture and character of these people before they brought them in?
Of course the Dutch, Swedes, French, etc. all believed they were superior, same as their attitudes toward Americans, but in fact they don't have the will to win because their beliefs are so vague and their officially allowed opinions limited. Islamists have very strong beliefs, and that's why they're doing better than western Europeans in this battle.
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1. the most is not really where the problem is, the problem lies with new immigrants maybe in France where new immigrants are often found, in the Netherlands most issues are from the second generation, born in the Netherlands to poorly integrated parents who are the victims of not feeling at home in the migrant society nor in the Dutch society. Not at home with one nor with the other. When they apply (speaking perfect Dutch, educated at the same schools as other Dutch born children with local names) they often are discriminated against. It was tested, a group did this, they sent in job applications with the exact same information, same place of birth, same everything but one was sent with the name Mohammed and the other one with a Dutch name like Peter, the Peter was invited for an interview, Mohammed was denied outright.

2. And no, some Dutch are especially lacking in hospitality. There is a village where you will always be seen as the outsider if you have not lived in the village your entire life. That is how xenophobe the people in that village are.

3. And the people who brought in almost illiterate Moroccans did this out of choice, they were cheap, lacking in education and good only for menial labor like cleaning, working in heavy industry, etc. etc. etc. Some of them just had to sign an X on the dotted line because they were unable to write their own names. Then they were allowed to bring in wives who were just as illiterate and unintelligent. The companies who organized this with the political powers of that time (right wing and conservative parties) were not planning to keep them around, they were supposed to be ditched asap when the job market stabilized/went down the tube. But most of them worked for decades in the end and they were so used to living in the lap of luxury and much more freedom than that they were used too that they did not want to go back. That is the hard truth and for the first 20 years of them living here no work was made of integration or learning Dutch properly. And yes, that is as much our fault as the fault of the immigrants. We were helping this by translating stuff for them in Arabic so long that most thought this was an entitlement.

4. people here have just as strong beliefs, in reality most Muslims are getting less religious. They are loosing their strong opinions mostly which causes some youths who feel at home absolutely nowhere to turn to. And extremists handily used that estrangement to their advantage, filling their heads with the notion that they were the only real family they had. Just like gangs in the US use that estrangement to their advantage. And as said before, they are loosing this battle because nobody is going to give in.
 
Orly? said:
Uh, no.. Immigrants have absolutely NO right to force their new host country to change to suit their fancy... 0, none.
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Did I say that? But if the Dutch refuse to let people integrate into their society, than successfully integrating because immensely more difficult.
 
Blaming the victims? The Dutch have been celebrated and promoted by liberals as an ideal of tolerance and open-mindedness.

...When it comes to drugs and legal prostitution.
 
Chagos said:
I'd substitute "integration" here. Doing in Rome what the Romans do didn't require Gallic mercenaries to stop speaking their language for instance. Nor was it demanded of them. As little as forsaking their particular gods although adopting the Roman ones was seen favorably.

Come to my house and you can prop your feet on the sofa at your pleasure. Providing, that is, you can find enough room, what with everybody else's feet already being propped there.

But I'd agree to that not being a representative sample :mrgreen:
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It's not necessary for them to stop speaking their native language, or to change their religion completely, but a compromise has to be made in how they respond to cultural norms in Europe.
Asians do this pretty well, so do Latinos in the USA.

And I know many Muslims do manage to find a way to keep some of their original culture, while adopting some European practices.
 
Peter King said:
Assimilation goes way too far. embracing your new surrounding, living by their laws, respecting the customs and practices of your new homeland, integrating yourself in that new homeland, that is something that you can demand from new arrivals. Assimilation is not. Even now a lot of people still see them as Irish American, German American, Dutch American, they have all integrated and embraced the US but they still have aspects of their own identity they hold very dearly. If you assimilate you have to do away with those in favor of what the new country says people should do/act.

And even then, this is not a one way street (just coming from the immigrants), this is a two way street.

When the locals have this attitude:

View attachment 67199474

integrate, I tell you integrate. No, I have to do nothing, I can just stand hear and judge you. I do not have to welcome you, try to engage you or respect you, but you must still integrate into my world. DO IT NOW!!!!!!

That is not a helpful attitude IMHO.
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Is that a fair depiction of how locals are greeting new arrivals? What about all those people with "Refugees Welcome" signs?
I understand that some people will view newcomers with hostility, that's actually a normal response if you think about what's going on.

And who's responsible for newcomers integration? The government, the native populace, or the new arrivals? Immigrants are obviously benefiting from their migration to Europe, so is it fair to expect something from them in return?
 
truthatallcost said:
Is that a fair depiction of how locals are greeting new arrivals? What about all those people with "Refugees Welcome" signs?
I understand that some people will view newcomers with hostility, that's actually a normal response if you think about what's going on.

And who's responsible for newcomers integration? The government, the native populace, or the new arrivals? Immigrants are obviously benefiting from their migration to Europe, so is it fair to expect something from them in return?
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Some welcomed them, others were not so nice to them. But this is mostly about immigrants living for a long time in the Netherlands.

And who is responsible? All of them, that is who, you cannot have one without the other IMHO. But the main drive has to come from the immigrants.
 
I suppose the next question is when the period of mourning and solidarity will give way to the backlash against the clownish incompetence of Belgian authorities.
 
Jack Hays said:
I suppose the next question is when the period of mourning and solidarity will give way to the backlash against the clownish incompetence of Belgian authorities.
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They have not been accused of being 'proactive'.
 
truthatallcost said:
It's not necessary for them to stop speaking their native language, or to change their religion completely, but a compromise has to be made in how they respond to cultural norms in Europe.
Asians do this pretty well, so do Latinos in the USA.

And I know many Muslims do manage to find a way to keep some of their original culture, while adopting some European practices.
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No opposition from me to any of this, I'm in agreement.

It's just that I prefer precise definitions even where that may seem to some as wallowing in semantics.

All of what you state above would (and does) constitute the integration that's indeed absolutely required. "Assimilation" OTH is a totally different issue.
 
truthatallcost said:
It's not necessary for them to stop speaking their native language, or to change their religion completely, but a compromise has to be made in how they respond to cultural norms in Europe.
Asians do this pretty well, so do Latinos in the USA.

And I know many Muslims do manage to find a way to keep some of their original culture, while adopting some European practices.
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Like Chagos, I can pretty much agree with this in general; Particularly relating to 'norms' such as following the rule of law and being respectful enough to learn and use on a regular basis the primary language of the country you are migrating to. So, why are we not spending more time agreeing on this rather than making ridiculous non-points like your OP? http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...t-fear-cancelled-due-fear.html#post1065705060
 
Chagos said:
No opposition from me to any of this, I'm in agreement.

It's just that I prefer precise definitions even where that may seem to some as wallowing in semantics.

All of what you state above would (and does) constitute the integration that's indeed absolutely required. "Assimilation" OTH is a totally different issue.
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Assimilation does not necessarily mean what it invokes to you personally but, I agree that when terms like this are used it is absolutely the right thing to do to seek clarification and hold out until you get that.
 
William Rea said:
Assimilation does not necessarily mean what it invokes to you personally but, I agree that when terms like this are used it is absolutely the right thing to do to seek clarification and hold out until you get that.
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That's the trouble with watching TV crap, one still can't help thinking "Borg" :mrgreen:
 
William Rea said:
Like Chagos, I can pretty much agree with this in general; Particularly relating to 'norms' such as following the rule of law and being respectful enough to learn and use on a regular basis the primary language of the country you are migrating to. So, why are we not spending more time agreeing on this rather than making ridiculous non-points like your OP? http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...t-fear-cancelled-due-fear.html#post1065705060
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What is strange with this argument is the majority of those fleeing for a better life, with Daesh, are in-fact second generation and have, in the eyes of some, integrated. How shall we explain this oddity?
 
gunner said:
What is strange with this argument is the majority of those fleeing for a better life, with Daesh, are in-fact second generation and have, in the eyes of some, integrated. How shall we explain this oddity?
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That seeming to be integrated in the eyes of some (or of everybody for that matter) means squat where eventual behavior shows otherwise.

Besides the fact that the second generation isn't fleeing from Daesh.

But I understand (I think) what is meant.
 
Chagos said:
That seeming to be integrated in the eyes of some (or of everybody for that matter) means squat where eventual behavior shows otherwise.

Besides the fact that the second generation isn't fleeing from Daesh.

But I understand (I think) what is meant.
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You have read it backwards. The 'integrated ' (or not?) are fleeing to join Daesh.
 
gunner said:
You have read it backwards. The 'integrated ' (or not?) are fleeing to join Daesh.
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Okay, I DID read that backwards even where I got the proper gist.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
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