So who's correct?

Infinite Chaos · Mar 24, 2016

Trump claims UK muslims are not helping the UK security services OR Theresa May (Home Office - i.e. security) and the Assistant Deputy Metropolitain Police Commissioner for London who know that 7 attacks have been foiled in the last 7 months?

Anyone whose ever worked in security (has Trump any kind of military service record?) knows that you rely on information from local informants to do any kind of policing and security but it's strange that Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.

Video: Donald Trump: British Muslims aren't reporting terror suspects - Telegraph

May: Trump's Muslims Comments 'Plain Wrong'

So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?

Orly? · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
1. (has Trump any kind of military service record?)
2. Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.

1. He went to a military school and graduated reaching the highest rank of cadet or something like that..

2. Good..

Cyrylek · Mar 24, 2016

Orly? said:
1. He went to a military school and graduated reaching the highest rank of cadet or something like that..

Yeah, the New York Military Academy. It's a private boarding school, for crying out loud.

Infinite Chaos · Mar 24, 2016

Cyrylek said:
~ a private boarding school ~

OK, so he's never actually been on the streets or in the field or any real experience to speak out. Has he ever been in command of people who had to do that work?

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?

Of course they do. People expect that their security services and spy organisations..hell their police are transparent and open. They are not, nor should they be when it comes to sources.

It is amazing how Drumpf and others seem to think that the Muslim community is not helping. Lets bring it out of the Muslim community and take say the random criminal element in a big city. Do you think that not only the community are not helping but that the police would admit that they have sources, spies and what not in the community? Admitting it, would put people at risk, not to mention expose police tactics.

Lets put it this way. Officially there are no British/US troops in Syria, but everyone knows there are special forces there. It is a freaking given. Would the American and British governments admit it? Of course not, it would politically be bad, tactically idiotic and put those men who are there at bigger risk than it already is.

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
OK, so he's never actually been on the streets or in the field or any real experience to speak out. Has he ever been in command of people who had to do that work?

He has very little experience since he went bankrupt the 2nd or 3rd time. He is a name, a brand.. the actual businesses are owned by others. He is a fraud.

Sweden · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Trump claims UK muslims are not helping the UK security services OR Theresa May (Home Office - i.e. security) and the Assistant Deputy Metropolitain Police Commissioner for London who know that 7 attacks have been foiled in the last 7 months?

Anyone whose ever worked in security (has Trump any kind of military service record?) knows that you rely on information from local informants to do any kind of policing and security but it's strange that Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.

Video: Donald Trump: British Muslims aren't reporting terror suspects - Telegraph

May: Trump's Muslims Comments 'Plain Wrong'

So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?

As is so often the case the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. That is some Muslims will report suspicions or actual information about potential terrorists and some won't. My guess is that a majority play safe and keep quiet.

HonestJoe · Mar 24, 2016

Sweden said:
As is so often the case the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. That is some Muslims will report suspicions or actual information about potential terrorists and some won't. My guess is that a majority play safe and keep quiet.

That’s true of most people unfortunately. There is a big cultural bias against “grassing”/”snitching”, especially within poorer urban community, which incorporate a lot of Muslims living here. I don’t think there’s evidence that Muslims are fundamentally less willing to provide information, though they might have specific fears about how the authorities will treat informants.

gunner · Mar 24, 2016

PeteEU said:
Of course they do. People expect that their security services and spy organisations..hell their police are transparent and open. They are not, nor should they be when it comes to sources.

It is amazing how Drumpf and others seem to think that the Muslim community is not helping. Lets bring it out of the Muslim community and take say the random criminal element in a big city. Do you think that not only the community are not helping but that the police would admit that they have sources, spies and what not in the community? Admitting it, would put people at risk, not to mention expose police tactics.

Lets put it this way. Officially there are no British/US troops in Syria, but everyone knows there are special forces there. It is a freaking given. Would the American and British governments admit it? Of course not, it would politically be bad, tactically idiotic and put those men who are there at bigger risk than it already is.

A slightly different topic. How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

gunner said:
A slightly different topic. How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?

Why do "Christian communities" not come out and do the same with similar abuse cases in Christian communities?

And who says they did not, but were ignored by police and government?

Look at the Jimmy Savile case. A white Christian, who abused dozens of kids over decades. People reported him, those reports were ignored by both police and government.. plus of course the BBC. Or the pedo gang in Parliament. Rumors had been going around for decades, and yet the investigation is still not going on. Why is that? who is protecting who? Where are the public hearings, or transparent police investigations?

And even if there was a grand "source" in the community, do you really think that the police would risk that sources life just to please the media/public?

joG · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Trump claims UK muslims are not helping the UK security services OR Theresa May (Home Office - i.e. security) and the Assistant Deputy Metropolitain Police Commissioner for London who know that 7 attacks have been foiled in the last 7 months?

Anyone whose ever worked in security (has Trump any kind of military service record?) knows that you rely on information from local informants to do any kind of policing and security but it's strange that Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.

Video: Donald Trump: British Muslims aren't reporting terror suspects - Telegraph

May: Trump's Muslims Comments 'Plain Wrong'

So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?

In all honesty, Trump is simplifying, but has a point that has often been made over the years in statements and articles by security professionals and partially supported in studies. The Muslim populations were widely partial to resistance and terrorist tactics in the past and sometimes quite supportive. This is normal in societies, where the population believes there to be a cause or even, where it is only dangerous to speak up. We have seen it with the IRA, ETA, RAF, Mafia, PKK etc, etc. And here it is quite obvious. The split runs right through families. Just remember Bin Laden. The main part of the family was anything but terrorist. Also there will be a tendency to not talk to group members about the criminal activities, that do not support you. The uninformed will know there is something bad going down, but not enough to put a finger on.

Do understand that I believe that every person is responsible for their actions and that not reporting crime is or should be criminal. Not reporting is in effect participation in the act. That is how organized crime is.

gunner · Mar 24, 2016

PeteEU said:
Why do "Christian communities" not come out and do the same with similar abuse cases in Christian communities?

And who says they did not, but were ignored by police and government?

Look at the Jimmy Savile case. A white Christian, who abused dozens of kids over decades. People reported him, those reports were ignored by both police and government.. plus of course the BBC. Or the pedo gang in Parliament. Rumors had been going around for decades, and yet the investigation is still not going on. Why is that? who is protecting who? Where are the public hearings, or transparent police investigations?

And even if there was a grand "source" in the community, do you really think that the police would risk that sources life just to please the media/public?

Your deflection is sickening. Once again, please provide evidence of the 'very same ' behaviour, from any other community. That is, the perpetrators are related ie brothers, cousins and uncles and then victims are shared with other identical communities? What the f... Saville has to do with this, I have no idea.

Hawkeye10 · Mar 24, 2016

PeteEU said:
He has very little experience since he went bankrupt the 2nd or 3rd time. He is a name, a brand.. the actual businesses are owned by others. He is a fraud.

It does not take 22,000 employees to manage a brand.

Donald Trump has created about 34,000 jobs - Sep. 3, 2015

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

gunner said:
Your deflection is sickening. Once again, please provide evidence of the 'very same ' behaviour, from any other community. That is, the perpetrators are related ie brothers, cousins and uncles and then victims are shared with other identical communities? What the f... Saville has to do with this, I have no idea.

Are you freaking kidding me? Saville was a child groomer and molester no? That is what he has to do with it. He was protected by the BBC, Police, politicians and others for decades... That is what he has to do with it.

And prove that child grooming and molestation happens in non-Muslim communities? LOL are you freaking kidding me? Do you only read the "muslim are bad" news or something?

Adam Johnson just got convicted.. grooming, white and Christian. Did his community report or stop him? no.. a victim did.

Seven members of 'terrifyingly depraved' paedophile gang jailed | UK news | The Guardian

Why did the community not stop them?

Britain's paedophile gang mistress: Marie Black held poker games to decide which children to rape

Or this white Christian gang run by a woman! Where was the community?

And again, where was the community when UK parliament members were shagging young boys and girls? Where was the police? Where was the justice system?

So spare me... you are the one deflecting by only going after "muslim gangs".. when there are white Christians doing the exact same thing.

Now Look.... · Mar 24, 2016

It's both.

Muslims are known to close ranks across the world, yet many do still help and inform. And given how many Muslim areas seem to be one huge criminal fraternity, we do need the new Investigatory Powers Bill to give the relevent sections of the community a damn good infiltrating.

CAIR-ing about victims!

Indeed, the only real issue seems to be whining Muslims bellyaching about being 'victimised'. Only criminals are victimised.

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

Hawkeye10 said:
It does not take 22,000 employees to manage a brand.

Donald Trump has created about 34,000 jobs - Sep. 3, 2015

Well lets look at that. Real Estate holdings.. his bread and butter no?

Trump Entertainment Resorts.. who owns that? Carl Icahn.. hmm
Trump International Hotel and Tower Chicago.. who owns that? Not Trump.
Trump Hotel Las Vegas.. partnership with 2 others.. minority stake.
Trump International Hotel and Tower in New York.. GE owns and built it.. but Trump lent his "name and expertise".

He also claims to own vineyards.. he does not. His son owns them.

He is a brand pure and simple. Brands can have lots of employees also btw.. just look at Apple

gunner · Mar 24, 2016

PeteEU said:
Are you freaking kidding me? Saville was a child groomer and molester no? That is what he has to do with it. He was protected by the BBC, Police, politicians and others for decades... That is what he has to do with it.

And prove that child grooming and molestation happens in non-Muslim communities? LOL are you freaking kidding me? Do you only read the "muslim are bad" news or something?

Adam Johnson just got convicted.. grooming, white and Christian. Did his community report or stop him? no.. a victim did.

Seven members of 'terrifyingly depraved' paedophile gang jailed | UK news | The Guardian

Why did the community not stop them?

Britain's paedophile gang mistress: Marie Black held poker games to decide which children to rape

Or this white Christian gang run by a woman! Where was the community?

And again, where was the community when UK parliament members were shagging young boys and girls? Where was the police? Where was the justice system?

So spare me... you are the one deflecting by only going after "muslim gangs".. when there are white Christians doing the exact same thing.

You've totally ignored my questions. Show me a community that acts in the VERY SAME WAY? Is that clear enough for you.

Now Look.... · Mar 24, 2016

And when the infidels rape, it's outcry time. Calls for very sharp sentences indeed.

But when Muslims do it, it's sanctioned by the faith and worthy of a Labour Party coverup job! In more then one place! Like Rotherham and Rochdale, where Labour were voted right back in again last year!

My god, if anyone else did what Labour or Muslims can find themselves doing, they'd have been strung up by their... communities.

Higher calibre class of Tory voter or infidels, probably!

HonestJoe · Mar 24, 2016

gunner said:
A slightly different topic. How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?

Probably the same kind of reasons other communities don’t provide information about systematic abuse and criminality either. For a start, most Muslims (like most non-Muslims) in the area would have had no idea the abuse was going on.

PeteEU · Mar 24, 2016

gunner said:
You've totally ignored my questions. Show me a community that acts in the VERY SAME WAY? Is that clear enough for you.

Acts in what way? Ignoring crime and not reporting? all of them. We are lucky if there is some brave soul in the community that does report crime..

Now Look.... · Mar 24, 2016

HonestJoe said:
Probably the same kind of reasons other communities don’t provide information about systematic abuse and criminality either. For a start, most Muslims (like most non-Muslims) in the area would have had no idea the abuse was going on.

They don't ALL have no idea!

gunner · Mar 24, 2016

HonestJoe said:
Probably the same kind of reasons other communities don’t provide information about systematic abuse and criminality either. For a start, most Muslims (like most non-Muslims) in the area would have had no idea the abuse was going on.

Wrong. It was a well known fact within the community.

Tonawanda · Mar 24, 2016

Infinite Chaos said:
Trump claims UK muslims are not helping the UK security services OR Theresa May (Home Office - i.e. security) and the Assistant Deputy Metropolitain Police Commissioner for London who know that 7 attacks have been foiled in the last 7 months?

Anyone whose ever worked in security (has Trump any kind of military service record?) knows that you rely on information from local informants to do any kind of policing and security but it's strange that Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.?

Agree, informants are critical to law enforcement, and it would seems likely that legitimate information has come in to assist them. As it relates to many people in the UK, it is likely they have come the same conclusion as Trump, based on discussions with other people that share their opinion. I don't know about the UK, but some people in Europe that I know or have spoken to outside of the UK, strongly agree that the Muslim community would not be as supportive to the authorities as the general population or other ethnic groups.

I'm reasonable certain that London is not making up the fact that they are getting some cooperation from the Muslim community. But, I would be interested in some details about these 7 attacks. Were there arrests made in these 7 situations? If not, I would expect that he either believes that attacks were prevented by his intervention, or he could be claiming potential attacks to support his organization. I also believe that even if he shares the same opinion of the many others in the UK you refer to, he would not make politically incorrect statements, or ones that would alienate the Muslim community.

Infinite Chaos said:
So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?

Could be infiltration of the community, information sharing from other law enforcement sources, or even eavesdropping. Agree that it is likely that some information has come in from the Muslim community.

Tonawanda · Mar 24, 2016

Hawkeye10 said:
It does not take 22,000 employees to manage a brand.

Donald Trump has created about 34,000 jobs - Sep. 3, 2015

Thanks for sharing that link!

HonestJoe · Mar 24, 2016

Now said:
They don't ALL have no idea!

Of course. My point was that the level of awareness and the level of detailed knowledge across the wider community wouldn’t have been significantly different to other communities which have similar organised criminality operating within. This isn’t a uniquely Muslim issue.

gunner said:
Wrong. It was a well known fact within the community.

Do you have any evidence of that, especially of knowledge only available to the Muslims in the community rather than the local residents as a whole?

So who's correct?

Buttermilk Man