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So who's correct?

Paul, the claim you made that I was answering was that muslims didn't come out and hand in their own. The Rotherham report plainly states that before all the innocent white kids started being targeted, those same paedophiles were already targeting Pakistani girls.

If those Pakistani women had been listened to, we may not have had the horrors which followed.

Unfortunately, as we ALL know the women in the Pakistani are fighting a life long struggle. That is the reality.
 
Indeed. Even - or especially - in Labour, Muslim women are blocked from rising through the ranks by Muslim men, who enjoy a great amount of leg room to propagate their own prejudices, without rage from the Twitter twatterati.


Looks like it's down to who you know, which is another irony, given how these same lefties hate privilege in others.
 
My premise is: there is no other group of offenders that behave in the very same way. That is, (1) family members (brothers/cousins/uncles) are involved in the organised gangs. (2) these gangs routinely share their victims with other like minded Muslim rape gangs. You follow?

You continue to deflect I have answered your premise several times but lets do this again.

1) Family members involved in organised gangs.. you have denied that everything from the Italian mafia to the Chinese mafia dont have family involved .. biological family. Who ran the Gotti crime family in New York? Who took over the family after Gotti senior died? Oh junior of course.. there are tons of examples where whole families are involved in organized crime.

2) What the hell are you babbling about. That organised crime families share their "victims" with nearly non existent "muslim rape gangs"? What are you talking about? It makes no sense what so ever and hence I have refused to answer it. You are seeing Muslims everywhere it seems. The biggest pedophile gang to date that has been busted, was mostly white Christians that lived in Europe and the US. They shared!... does that count in your warped world view?
 
Unfortunately, as we ALL know the women in the Pakistani are fighting a life long struggle. That is the reality.

True, but they did try and turn their own in..

~ enjoy a great amount of leg room to propagate their own prejudices, without rage from the Twitter twatterati.


Looks like it's down to who you know, which is another irony, given how these same lefties hate privilege in others.

Were the Rotherham police who the muslim women reported the crimes to
  • Pakistani men?
  • Lefties?
  • "Twatterati?"
  • Other?
 
Well let's hear it from their keyboards, then.
 
You continue to deflect I have answered your premise several times but lets do this again.

1) Family members involved in organised gangs.. you have denied that everything from the Italian mafia to the Chinese mafia dont have family involved .. biological family. Who ran the Gotti crime family in New York? Who took over the family after Gotti senior died? Oh junior of course.. there are tons of examples where whole families are involved in organized crime.

2) What the hell are you babbling about. That organised crime families share their "victims" with nearly non existent "muslim rape gangs"? What are you talking about? It makes no sense what so ever and hence I have refused to answer it. You are seeing Muslims everywhere it seems. The biggest pedophile gang to date that has been busted, was mostly white Christians that lived in Europe and the US. They shared!... does that count in your warped world view?

OK, I'll try this another way. You are convinced the Italian and Irish, act in the very SAME way. Show me the evidence? Now, here's the IMPORTANT part. Do not show me evidence of ANY other crime. It has to be identical to that which my premise is based on. You follow?
 
OK, I'll try this another way. You are convinced the Italian and Irish, act in the very SAME way. Show me the evidence? Now, here's the IMPORTANT part. Do not show me evidence of ANY other crime. It has to be identical to that which my premise is based on. You follow?

No because your premise does not make sense.. the 2nd one especially. And what do you mean "ACT" in the same way? what way? That they are in family with each other and are criminals and in a gang? Ever watch Godfather? and not that is not proof, but come on you cant be that ignorant of organized crime families regardless of the nationality...

Lets give a small example that is local to me.

Murders in Spain, and a Dublin attack with AK-47s: the deadly 20-year war of Ireland’s drug cartels | World news | The Guardian

Notice this part..

CHRISTY KINAHAN The head of the most powerful crime cartel in Ireland, which he runs from his home in the Costa del Sol. He has a string of convictions for heroin dealing from his youth onwards and used his time in prison to become fluent in several European languages and earn a number of university degrees. Estimated to run an empire worth about €1 billion, Kinahan’s sons Daniel and Christopher Jnr were arrested by Spanish police in 2010 as part of Operation Shovel, an international police investigation into the cartel, but neither man was charged.

There are more "family" links in the article.. it is an interesting read. Murder, gunning down people in public,

And then there are these...

Video: 'Bomb' kills driver in Berlin car explosion 'linked to organised crime' - Telegraph

or this one that is very interesting..

Car bombing leaves top organized crime figure critically wounded - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

So here we have family members killed or involved in crimes that include car bombings and mass shootings. And that was just a 2 minute search.
 
No because your premise does not make sense.. the 2nd one especially. And what do you mean "ACT" in the same way? what way? That they are in family with each other and are criminals and in a gang? Ever watch Godfather? and not that is not proof, but come on you cant be that ignorant of organized crime families regardless of the nationality...

Lets give a small example that is local to me.

Murders in Spain, and a Dublin attack with AK-47s: the deadly 20-year war of Ireland’s drug cartels | World news | The Guardian

Notice this part..



There are more "family" links in the article.. it is an interesting read. Murder, gunning down people in public,

And then there are these...

Video: 'Bomb' kills driver in Berlin car explosion 'linked to organised crime' - Telegraph

or this one that is very interesting..

Car bombing leaves top organized crime figure critically wounded - Israel News - Jerusalem Post

So here we have family members killed or involved in crimes that include car bombings and mass shootings. And that was just a 2 minute search.

What did I say about NOT covering any other crime, than what my premise is based on?

So you have no evidence countering my premise?

I could NOT give two hoots about drugs, gun crime etc. I've NOT based my premise on those types of crime. Follow?
 
Well, that "article" looks play right into trumps hands.
Trump says we have a problem with muslim terrorists, and the opposition claims that's "racist".

It seems at least in the U.S., Trump wins that argument. Not just wins, but every time the opposition is confronted with terrorism/radicalized Islamist groups, if their response is to cry "that's not PC, its so racist!", it seems as though they value being PC over saving lives, it's a terrible position to be in IMO, and it further enrages those who think something needs to be done about ME terrorism.
 
But that's the thing about the Left. With the economy tanking, PC running amok, respect abroad failing and crime and social breakdown on the rise, the last thing Mr. Average wants to hear is 'No, YOU'RE the crapbag!'

Classic deception by the real dirtbags running so much of the show.
 
Your deflection is sickening. Once again, please provide evidence of the 'very same ' behaviour, from any other community. That is, the perpetrators are related ie brothers, cousins and uncles and then victims are shared with other identical communities? What the f... Saville has to do with this, I have no idea.

Talk about moving the goal posts and deflecting gunner? That post was the very definition of both of those behaviours.
 
Talk about moving the goal posts and deflecting gunner? That post was the very definition of both of those behaviours.

I have moved NO goal posts. Sorry Will, when trying to disprove a premise you don't have the luxury of changing things to fit your views.
 
You've totally ignored my questions. Show me a community that acts in the VERY SAME WAY? Is that clear enough for you.

I'll put this as simply, as academically possible.

When using a 'comparative model' the user wishes to prove two outcomes. A- a most similar model, or B- a most dissimilar model. Follow?

My claim to you, is provide me with a 'most similar model' follow?

My premise is: there is no other group of offenders that behave in the very same way. That is, (1) family members (brothers/cousins/uncles) are involved in the organised gangs. (2) these gangs routinely share their victims with other like minded Muslim rape gangs. You follow?

When you talk of "Adam Johnston" as "similar" you are so missing the point, it is frightening. I mean, if you were offering Johnston as a 'most dissimilar' case you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you are not.

If you cannot disprove my premise, then logic dictates, these set of behaviours are distinct to one set of perpetrators. Follow?

Conclusions can be made, that this set of behaviours are underpinned and promulgated by a set of 'shared' values, and a 'common belief system'. Follow?

Now please follow the above logic, and answer accordingly.

Talk about moving the goal posts and deflecting gunner? That post was the very definition of both of those behaviours.

There you go. it looks pretty clear as to what I'm saying. Talking about Irish and Italian mafia is demonstrating the VERY SAME BEHAVIOUR :doh
 
I have moved NO goal posts. Sorry Will, when trying to disprove a premise you don't have the luxury of changing things to fit your views.
Here are some comments followed by what I think are relevant and important questions I think you need to address:

1) I can't speak for Will, but I think what makes me most uncomfortable with your repeatedly reverting back to Rotherham, even in threads such as this which really aren't anything to do with it, is this: you insist, in any kind of discussion about it, a sine qua non that the Muslim 'community' of Rotherham is excoriated for harbouring the perpetrators of these crimes, for not doing enough to condemn them, for maintaining cultural attitudes that at once both downplay the seriousness of the crimes and tacitly encourage the effed up attitudes that brought those crimes about.

When you have it pointed out to you that it was indeed groups of Muslim women and individuals that were amongst the first to report the criminal activities of the perpetrators, firstly you say:

How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?

Then you say,
I've never denied there was problems with their own, far from it.

Perhaps you're suggesting that the groups and individuals who did report abuse aren't really a part of the 'Muslim community'. So perhaps you can clear this up.

Question: Do you concede that the 'Muslim community' did indeed act, sooner than virtually anyone else, to address and combat the crimes committed?

2) You also introduce a racial element into it inferring, while stopping short of being explicit, that the targeting of victims was a playing out of this phantasmal 'rape jihad' phenomenon.

Question: Do you believe that 'rape jihad' did indeed play a part in the crimes in Rotherham?

3) And thirdly, you insist that in order to draw comparisons between different cases of violent and organised rape and abuse every element of each case has to be the 'very same' in order to be relevant.

Clearly, in your lack of interest in, and dismissal of all those other high-profile grooming, paedophile, group activities you are emphasising the predominantly Pakistani-Muslim cases as being particularly noteworthy and, it would appear, peculiarly heinous. By not explaining why this might be the case you lead us to conclude that it must have something to do with a religious or racial distinction between different sets of what I think most people would determine are equally heinous, equally reprehensible delinquents.

Question: Do you believe that there is something uniquely heinous about the crimes of the Rotherham rape gangs that sets them apart from all those other cases of rape and abuse that we've seen in recent months perpetrated by non-Muslim criminal gangs?

4) Whilst they all differ considerably in their modus operandi, organisation and victim typology, crimes of violence, sexual abuse, grooming and paedophilia are all as worthy of constant and repeated reiteration and discussion in my book.

Question: Why are the crimes of Rotherham worthy of continual reminders, brought repeatedly into threads not dealing with those incidents, when other clearly comparable social aberrations are not?

Question: Is it because in linking such disparate issues as terrorism, immigration, crime and sexual deviance we can then be invited to label all these issues with one neat 'Muslim problem' label?

Now Paul, I know that you are unlikely to address these five questions directly, that tends not to be your way, but I thought that it was relevant to ask because other posters might be able to reflect and answer those questions for themselves in the light of how these debates go and have gone in the past.
 
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"Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society, and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

So says the man whose economics will crash the economy, whose party enjoys nothing more than social engineering and whose terrorist policy is to invite them all for tea.

Just an observation on your byline, Andalablue. Carry on.
 
So says the man whose economics will crash the economy, whose party enjoys nothing more than social engineering and whose terrorist policy is to invite them all for tea.



Just an observation on your byline, Andalablue. Carry on.


In the absence of argument, I guess you'll have to stick with slogans.
 
I quoted one of yours, so fair do's today.
 
There you go. it looks pretty clear as to what I'm saying. Talking about Irish and Italian mafia is demonstrating the VERY SAME BEHAVIOUR :doh

In context gunner it looks more like this...

A slightly different topic. How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?

Why do "Christian communities" not come out and do the same with similar abuse cases in Christian communities?

And who says they did not, but were ignored by police and government?

Look at the Jimmy Savile case. A white Christian, who abused dozens of kids over decades. People reported him, those reports were ignored by both police and government.. plus of course the BBC. Or the pedo gang in Parliament. Rumors had been going around for decades, and yet the investigation is still not going on. Why is that? who is protecting who? Where are the public hearings, or transparent police investigations?

And even if there was a grand "source" in the community, do you really think that the police would risk that sources life just to please the media/public?

Your deflection is sickening. Once again, please provide evidence of the 'very same ' behaviour, from any other community. That is, the perpetrators are related ie brothers, cousins and uncles and then victims are shared with other identical communities? What the f... Saville has to do with this, I have no idea.


Pete answered your question, you didn't like the response so you added the familial caveat post hoc.
 
There you go. it looks pretty clear as to what I'm saying. Talking about Irish and Italian mafia is demonstrating the VERY SAME BEHAVIOUR :doh

I know this is kind of YOUR thing on this forum gunner and what I say isn't going to make a difference but, anyone who believes that trafficking and abusing young girls in Europe is solely a Pakistani problem is seriously deluded. At one time I had you marked as being better than this.
 
Here are some comments followed by what I think are relevant and important questions I think you need to address:

1) I can't speak for Will, but I think what makes me most uncomfortable with your repeatedly reverting back to Rotherham, even in threads such as this which really aren't anything to do with it, is this: you insist, in any kind of discussion about it, a sine qua non that the Muslim 'community' of Rotherham is excoriated for harbouring the perpetrators of these crimes, for not doing enough to condemn them, for maintaining cultural attitudes that at once both downplay the seriousness of the crimes and tacitly encourage the effed up attitudes that brought those crimes about.

Question: Do you believe that there is something uniquely heinous about the crimes of the Rotherham rape gangs that sets them apart from all those other cases of rape and abuse that we've seen in recent months perpetrated by non-Muslim criminal gangs?

4) Whilst they all differ considerably in their modus operandi, organisation and victim typology, crimes of violence, sexual abuse, grooming and paedophilia are all as worthy of constant and repeated reiteration and discussion in my book.

Question: Why are the crimes of Rotherham worthy of continual reminders, brought repeatedly into threads not dealing with those incidents, when other clearly comparable social aberrations are not?

Question: Is it because in linking such disparate issues as terrorism, immigration, crime and sexual deviance we can then be invited to label all these issues with one neat 'Muslim problem' label?

Now Paul, I know that you are unlikely to address these five questions directly, that tends not to be your way, but I thought that it was relevant to ask because other posters might be able to reflect and answer those questions for themselves in the light of how these debates go and have gone in the past.

Andy, it is nothing quite so complex. It is in-fact, very simple. Please show another group who act in the VERY SAME WAY, committing the VERY SAME behaviour patterns. That is: raping young girls, sharing them with family members, sharing them with friends, sharing them with like minded communities from a different city. You see, the beauty of MY premise is that I GET to set the parameters, and it is up to you (or whoever) to challenge my premise. Using a 'comparative model' will need YOU to provide evidence, that either shows a, 'most similar model' or, a 'most dissimilar model'. The choice is yours. If you wish to continue with Pete's idea of using Italian and Irish gangs, then be my guest. I look forward (if you choose the most similar option) to peruse your evidence. It will have to look something like, this. Gangs in town 1 (made up of friends and relations) are abusing victim 1, then sharing with gangs in town 2. Gang 2 is comprised of the very SAME TYPE of person i.e. family/friends mainly from one ethnicity/religion. And so on, and so on.
Using examples like "Adam Johnston" will show very little other than, he abused his status and power to abuse some poor victim. Bad in-itself, and truly despicable. That said, was he part of a gang? A gang that had friends/family? Did he pass the victim to others? etc.

"Rochdale, Rotherham, Derby, Oxford. The towns change, but the pattern is always the same. Gangs of men, mainly of Pakistani Muslim heritage, lure white girls as young as 10 with gifts and displays of affection. Next, the girl is raped as a way of “breaking her in"

Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls - Telegraph

From your preferred source:

"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in “localised, street grooming” of vulnerable girls, one of the UK’s most senior prosecutors has said."

Muslim community must address issue of street grooming, says Nazir Afzal | UK news | The Guardian

That you continue to make false equivalence, and scratch around for anything that fits your warped view of what is actually happening, says a lot about your thinking. The fact remains, you (or anyone else) has failed to counter a very basic premise.
 
I've bookmarked that reply. It's just so well put.
 
Andy, it is nothing quite so complex. It is in-fact, very simple. Please show another group who act in the VERY SAME WAY, committing the VERY SAME behaviour patterns. That is: raping young girls, sharing them with family members, sharing them with friends, sharing them with like minded communities from a different city. You see, the beauty of MY premise is that I GET to set the parameters, and it is up to you (or whoever) to challenge my premise.
I'm pretty sure I did challenge your parameters, you've just chosen not to address that challenge. Let me repeat it: Do you believe that there is something uniquely heinous about the crimes of the Rotherham rape gangs that sets them apart from all those other cases of rape and abuse that we've seen in recent months perpetrated by non-Muslim criminal gangs?


Using a 'comparative model' will need YOU to provide evidence, that either shows a, 'most similar model' or, a 'most dissimilar model'.
In order to jump through that particular arbitrary hoop, I'd have to accept the premise that your parameters are relevant to making a comparison of the heinous-ness of the crimes in question. Whether the crimes of disparate (or similar) groups of perpetrators can be designated more or less worthy of repetition, and more or less relevant to a discussion on the participation of the Muslim communities in Britain in the anti-terrorism effort (remember that that is the topic here?), has very little to do with the similarity of the modus operandi of those offending groups.

The choice is yours. If you wish to continue with Pete's idea of using Italian and Irish gangs, then be my guest. I look forward (if you choose the most similar option) to peruse your evidence. It will have to look something like, this. Gangs in town 1 (made up of friends and relations) are abusing victim 1, then sharing with gangs in town 2. Gang 2 is comprised of the very SAME TYPE of person i.e. family/friends mainly from one ethnicity/religion. And so on, and so on.
Using examples like "Adam Johnston" will show very little other than, he abused his status and power to abuse some poor victim. Bad in-itself, and truly despicable. That said, was he part of a gang? A gang that had friends/family? Did he pass the victim to others? etc.
I'm not claiming that any of those criminals and criminal groups have anything more to do with anti-terrorism than I am suggesting that the Rotherham crimes do. It seems to be you trying to link sex crimes with jihadist terrorism.

In what possible way am I trying 'to continue with Pete's idea of using Italian and Irish gangs'? I haven't mentioned them. I'm trying to tease out the relevance of this entire discussion of rape crimes in relation to anti-terrorism.

"Rochdale, Rotherham, Derby, Oxford. The towns change, but the pattern is always the same. Gangs of men, mainly of Pakistani Muslim heritage, lure white girls as young as 10 with gifts and displays of affection. Next, the girl is raped as a way of “breaking her in"
Which relates to the thread topic how?

"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in “localised, street grooming” of vulnerable girls, one of the UK’s most senior prosecutors has said."
I've no argument with that statement, other than to say that it was 'Muslim communities' who first alerted the authorities to the Rotherham crimes, and were ignored, I wonder why that was.

That you continue to make false equivalence, and scratch around for anything that fits your warped view of what is actually happening, says a lot about your thinking. The fact remains, you (or anyone else) has failed to counter a very basic premise.
What very basic premise is that? I'm failing to see any premise that links rape gangs, Muslim or otherwise, with jihadist terrorism.
 
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Andy, it is nothing quite so complex. It is in-fact, very simple. Please show another group who act in the VERY SAME WAY, committing the VERY SAME behaviour patterns. That is: raping young girls, sharing them with family members, sharing them with friends, sharing them with like minded communities from a different city. You see, the beauty of MY premise is that I GET to set the parameters, and it is up to you (or whoever) to challenge my premise. Using a 'comparative model' will need YOU to provide evidence, that either shows a, 'most similar model' or, a 'most dissimilar model'. The choice is yours. If you wish to continue with Pete's idea of using Italian and Irish gangs, then be my guest. I look forward (if you choose the most similar option) to peruse your evidence. It will have to look something like, this. Gangs in town 1 (made up of friends and relations) are abusing victim 1, then sharing with gangs in town 2. Gang 2 is comprised of the very SAME TYPE of person i.e. family/friends mainly from one ethnicity/religion. And so on, and so on.
Using examples like "Adam Johnston" will show very little other than, he abused his status and power to abuse some poor victim. Bad in-itself, and truly despicable. That said, was he part of a gang? A gang that had friends/family? Did he pass the victim to others? etc.

"Rochdale, Rotherham, Derby, Oxford. The towns change, but the pattern is always the same. Gangs of men, mainly of Pakistani Muslim heritage, lure white girls as young as 10 with gifts and displays of affection. Next, the girl is raped as a way of “breaking her in"

Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls - Telegraph

From your preferred source:

"The Muslim community must accept and address the fact that Asian and Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in “localised, street grooming” of vulnerable girls, one of the UK’s most senior prosecutors has said."

Muslim community must address issue of street grooming, says Nazir Afzal | UK news | The Guardian

That you continue to make false equivalence, and scratch around for anything that fits your warped view of what is actually happening, says a lot about your thinking. The fact remains, you (or anyone else) has failed to counter a very basic premise.

Let me just remind you of the questions I posed in my previous post, just so that other posters can judge whether your reply above addressed any or all of them.

Question 1: Do you concede that the 'Muslim community' did indeed act, sooner than virtually anyone else, to address and combat the crimes committed?

Question 2: Do you believe that 'rape jihad' did indeed play a part in the crimes in Rotherham?

Question 3: Do you believe that there is something uniquely heinous about the crimes of the Rotherham rape gangs that sets them apart from all those other cases of rape and abuse that we've seen in recent months perpetrated by non-Muslim criminal gangs?

Question 4: Why are the crimes of Rotherham worthy of continual reminders, brought repeatedly into threads not dealing with those incidents, when other clearly comparable social aberrations are not?

Question 5: Is it because in linking such disparate issues as terrorism, immigration, crime and sexual deviance we can then be invited to label all these issues with one neat 'Muslim problem' label?
 
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