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So who's correct?

Infinite Chaos said:
Trump claims UK muslims are not helping the UK security services OR Theresa May (Home Office - i.e. security) and the Assistant Deputy Metropolitain Police Commissioner for London who know that 7 attacks have been foiled in the last 7 months?

Anyone whose ever worked in security (has Trump any kind of military service record?) knows that you rely on information from local informants to do any kind of policing and security but it's strange that Trump's words are gospel to many here in the UK.

Video: Donald Trump: British Muslims aren't reporting terror suspects - Telegraph

May: Trump's Muslims Comments 'Plain Wrong'

So where (if Trump is correct) did UK services get the inside info to prevent the attacks?
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Trump is like a blind squirrel - he rummages through so much crap daily that eventually, every now and then, he discovers a nut. Unfortunately, this isn't one of those occasions.
 
so to be president you need to be a vet,like gw bush who could not hold up a reserve commitment,come on man.

run don run
 
HonestJoe said:
Of course. My point was that the level of awareness and the level of detailed knowledge across the wider community wouldn’t have been significantly different to other communities which have similar organised criminality operating within. This isn’t a uniquely Muslim issue.
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The knowledge can still be part of the puzzle. And the point is that Muslims who do know stuff close ranks. In my own town of Reading, even on a non-jihadi issue, there was a very public spat between Conservative and Labour Muslim candidates for local office, over personal sleaze issues in their community.

But when the police were called in, the silence was suddenly deafening.


And while other criminal communities can also close ranks, it can be said again that jihad is a lot more customised to the religious requirements of our new best buds. Our best buds often apart from the rest by their own design.
 
Now said:
And while other criminal communities can also close ranks…
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Not “criminal” communities – just communities. The police had massive problems getting information from nominally law-abiding citizens in all sorts of areas for all sorts of reasons. My response stands; that this happens in Muslim communities for many of the same reasons as it does in others and to a similar extent.

Now said:
it can be said again that jihad is a lot more customised to the religious requirements of our new best buds. Our best buds often apart from the rest by their own design.
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And by your design too? There are Muslims with no interest in integrating with the wider community but there are lots of other people with no interest in letting Muslims integrate and would, if they had their way, simply kick them all out. Equally, there are plenty of Muslims who do integrate and don’t live in self-contained bubbles. Generalisations and assumptions are one of the major barriers here and something of a vicious circle, especially when some people (from all sides) keep spinning it around.
 
I can see a dash of clarification is required.

Reasons for people to be suspicious of Muslims are also varied. Not least because even rape slavery or terrorism are mandated by the holy books - literally - but also other foul behaviour is part and parcel of Islamic existence. The animal cruelty of halal slaughter, for example. Or wife beating. Or antisemitism. The list is endless.

Muslim men in UK having 20 KIDS with multiple wives under Sharia law | UK | News | Daily Express

Muslim women 'stopped from becoming Labour councillors' - BBC News



Decent Muslims have to answer for all that. And they often can't, won't or are in no safe position to. Apostasy is a crime, too! And they may not even notice how antisocial their culture is.

But that's not our problem in the end. Our problem is the toxicity of Sharia-compliant communities themselves. And Sharia is essentially seditious and criminal.
 
gunner said:
You've totally ignored my questions. Show me a community that acts in the VERY SAME WAY? Is that clear enough for you.
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No community in the world acts THE VERY SAME WAY.
We call this continuum...

There ARE communities that act similar though for various reasons. Sometimes, minority communities (or even non-minority in some areas like the deep south) band together and refuse to work with authorities because they feel the authorities are "wrong" or "abusive".

CanadaJohn said:
Trump is like a blind squirrel - he rummages through so much crap daily that eventually, every now and then, he discovers a nut. Unfortunately, this isn't one of those occasions.
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Unfortunately, he is finding more and more nuts. Thus, his rising numbers in the polls. ;)
 
Ntharotep said:
No community in the world acts THE VERY SAME WAY.
We call this continuum...

There ARE communities that act similar though for various reasons. Sometimes, minority communities (or even non-minority in some areas like the deep south) band together and refuse to work with authorities because they feel the authorities are "wrong" or "abusive".


Unfortunately, he is finding more and more nuts. Thus, his rising numbers in the polls. ;)
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Right but these are largely immigrant or first generation neighborhoods coming to a new country at a time when Europe is facing a mass exodus from the middle east. They have reasons to be distrustful of the authorities, but at the end of the day if Immigrants cant find a way to integrate into their new home and cooperate with authorities at an appropriate level while breeding radical Islamic terrorists then it needs to be considered when deciding the level of immigration that is to be tolerated.

Not all immigrants to all countries integrate at the same level. In certain areas it works much better than others and if we ignore this reality then we are setting ourselves up for much greater problems down the road.
 
HonestJoe said:
Of course. My point was that the level of awareness and the level of detailed knowledge across the wider community wouldn’t have been significantly different to other communities which have similar organised criminality operating within. This isn’t a uniquely Muslim issue.

Do you have any evidence of that, especially of knowledge only available to the Muslims in the community rather than the local residents as a whole?
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It has been well documented. The latest where residents were very fearful of the perpetrators, who had a kind of 'celebrity status' among the community.
 
gunner said:
It has been well documented. The latest where residents were very fearful of the perpetrators, who had a kind of 'celebrity status' among the community.
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I’ve seen no such documentation (that's why I asked). Child abusers are sometimes “respected” members of communities (teachers, doctors, priests, politicians, TV stars etc.) and as has already been pointed out, people not reporting suspected or known crime due to fear of reprisals is common everywhere. There’s nothing here indicating a special or unique issue with Muslims in this context or any indication of a significant number of Muslims who were aware of the abuse but failed to report it for specifically religious/cultural reasons.

There are some real issues in relation to various Muslim communities (though not all from the inside) but exaggerating and generalising them will only do more harm than good.
 
HonestJoe said:
I’ve seen no such documentation (that's why I asked). Child abusers are sometimes “respected” members of communities (teachers, doctors, priests, politicians, TV stars etc.) and as has already been pointed out, people not reporting suspected or known crime due to fear of reprisals is common everywhere. There’s nothing here indicating a special or unique issue with Muslims in this context or any indication of a significant number of Muslims who were aware of the abuse but failed to report it for specifically religious/cultural reasons.

There are some real issues in relation to various Muslim communities (though not all from the inside) but exaggerating and generalising them will only do more harm than good.
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I'm not being lazy, but I've provided links in the past. Again, there are a special set of repeated behavioural patterns with MUSLIM RAPE gangs. Please show me another 'type' that have family members, close friends, as part of the 'rape gang'; then go on to share the poor victims with 'other like minded communities' i.e. 'Muslim rape gangs'.
 
Child abusers are sometimes “respected” members of communities (teachers, doctors, priests, politicians, TV stars etc.) and as has already been pointed out, people not reporting suspected or known crime due to fear of reprisals is common everywhere.
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Well that is where a bit of denial comes into the mix.

As previously covered, it becomes unique to Muslims where sexual abuse, antisemitism or jihad is part of the religion and part of the culture. Anyone can Google, so no need to do it again. That makes it easier for them.

It becomes unique to Muslims where outside the gang of offenders, there seems pretty much no outcry among them - unlike with us, which can sometimes go far to the other extreme. And it becomes unique to Muslims where widespread hate and mistrust of authority is key, on confected grounds to excuse their own behaviours.

Something like this, on even constitutional grounds: Probe into secretive Sharia law courts scrapped as Muslim leaders close ranks - Daily Mail Forum | Mail Online
 
PeteEU said:
Acts in what way? Ignoring crime and not reporting? all of them. We are lucky if there is some brave soul in the community that does report crime..
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I'll put this as simply, as academically possible.

When using a 'comparative model' the user wishes to prove two outcomes. A- a most similar model, or B- a most dissimilar model. Follow?

My claim to you, is provide me with a 'most similar model' follow?

My premise is: there is no other group of offenders that behave in the very same way. That is, (1) family members (brothers/cousins/uncles) are involved in the organised gangs. (2) these gangs routinely share their victims with other like minded Muslim rape gangs. You follow?

When you talk of "Adam Johnston" as "similar" you are so missing the point, it is frightening. I mean, if you were offering Johnston as a 'most dissimilar' case you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you are not.

If you cannot disprove my premise, then logic dictates, these set of behaviours are distinct to one set of perpetrators. Follow?

Conclusions can be made, that this set of behaviours are underpinned and promulgated by a set of 'shared' values, and a 'common belief system'. Follow?

Now please follow the above logic, and answer accordingly.
 
gunner said:
A slightly different topic. How come the 'Muslim community' did not come out and provide information, on the years of sustained abuse in Rotherham, by mainly Pakistani Muslims?
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They did Paul - you know the Jay report stated that the muslim women's groups had been telling of monsters in their midst, abusing their girls for years. Equally, so did the Sikh and other communities elsewhere in the UK.

One of the local Pakistani women's groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school. They also cited cases in Rotherham where Pakistani landlords had befriended Pakistani women and girls on their own for purposes of sex, then passed on their name to other men who had then contacted them for sex. The women and girls feared reporting such incidents to the Police because it would affect their future marriage prospects. Page 94.
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It's the same report that some of our American friends denied existed because the existence of brown victims took away their claims of a rape jihad.

joG said:
In all honesty, Trump is simplifying, but has a point that ~
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So where did the names fingering those involved in seven serious plots come from? The tooth fairy? :doh

Now said:
~ My god, if anyone else did what Labour or Muslims can find themselves doing, they'd have been strung up by their... communities. ~
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Did anyone string Jimmy Saville up?

Tonawanda said:
~ But, I would be interested in some details about these 7 attacks
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That's not going to happen, the police won't want to lose informers.

Tonawanda said:
~Were there arrests made in these 7 situations?
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People were arrested in their houses after prolonged surveillance, in once case the car was stopped on the motorway on its way to target.

Now said:
~ Decent Muslims have to answer for all that. And they often can't, won't or are in no safe position to ~
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I notice you cared enough about a decent innocent muslim to create a thread about the innocent white guy who accosted her in the street to ask her to explain why some muslims in another country bombed Brussels airport.

International10 said:
~ at the end of the day if Immigrants cant find a way to integrate into their new home and cooperate with authorities at an appropriate level while breeding radical Islamic terrorists then it needs to be considered when deciding the level of immigration that is to be tolerated ~
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Have a look at the Rotherham report, before the numbers of white victims rose, muslim women's groups came to the authorities to tell them of abusers and monsters in their community.

Nothing was done then and 1400 white victims later, someone eventually did something. None of those victims should have had to wait so long.
 
Did anyone string Jimmy Saville up?
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No, but he was already dead. And it's quite the cliche that there's always a lynch mob just waiting to rip open the next police van.

Unashamed lynch law simmers on a rundown estate | This Britain | News | The Independent


I notice you cared enough about a decent innocent muslim to create a thread about the innocent white guy who accosted her in the street to ask her to explain why some muslims in another country bombed Brussels airport.
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No, the fuss was about another type of vigilante, the new generation of left wing pearl-clutchers who also read Katie Hopkins for something else to harass the police about.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
They did Paul - you know the Jay report stated that the muslim women's groups had been telling of monsters in their midst, abusing their girls for years. Equally, so did the Sikh and other communities elsewhere in the UK.

It's the same report that some of our American friends denied existed because the existence of brown victims took away their claims of a rape jihad.
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I've never denied there was problems with their own, far from it. I mean, honour killings, first cousin marriage, forced marriage etc. problems are rife. Only recently, we have Muslim women 'stopped from becoming Labour councillors' - BBC News

"They don't like women to be heard, to be empowered," so problems for women within these communities id copious. That said, it does not challenge the fact that the vast majority of the 1400 victims were white, to deal in absolutes would be ridiculous. Moreover, many of the young victims were degraded and treated as "white trash" (many testified to such treatment). So I wouldn't for one minute say they treat their women with high regard. Why would I?
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HonestJoe said:
That’s true of most people unfortunately. There is a big cultural bias against “grassing”/”snitching”, especially within poorer urban community, which incorporate a lot of Muslims living here. I don’t think there’s evidence that Muslims are fundamentally less willing to provide information, though they might have specific fears about how the authorities will treat informants.
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good point! thanks
 
gunner said:
~ I've never denied there was problems with their own, far from it. I mean, honour killings, first cousin marriage, forced marriage etc. problems are rife. Only recently, we have Muslim women 'stopped from becoming Labour councillors' - BBC News

"They don't like women to be heard, to be empowered," so problems for women within these communities id copious. That said, it does not challenge the fact that the vast majority of the 1400 victims were white, to deal in absolutes would be ridiculous. Moreover, many of the young victims were degraded and treated as "white trash" (many testified to such treatment). So I wouldn't for one minute say they treat their women with high regard. Why would I?
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Paul, the claim you made that I was answering was that muslims didn't come out and hand in their own. The Rotherham report plainly states that before all the innocent white kids started being targeted, those same paedophiles were already targeting Pakistani girls.

If those Pakistani women had been listened to, we may not have had the horrors which followed.
 
gunner said:
I'll put this as simply, as academically possible.

When using a 'comparative model' the user wishes to prove two outcomes. A- a most similar model, or B- a most dissimilar model. Follow?

My claim to you, is provide me with a 'most similar model' follow?

My premise is: there is no other group of offenders that behave in the very same way. That is, (1) family members (brothers/cousins/uncles) are involved in the organised gangs. (2) these gangs routinely share their victims with other like minded Muslim rape gangs. You follow?
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Are you kidding me? Irish gangs, Italian gangs, Russian gangs and so on, all have deplorable behaviour towards women and family members are certainly involved. Why are you defending non-Muslim pedo gangs?

When you talk of "Adam Johnston" as "similar" you are so missing the point, it is frightening. I mean, if you were offering Johnston as a 'most dissimilar' case you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you are not.

If you cannot disprove my premise, then logic dictates, these set of behaviours are distinct to one set of perpetrators. Follow?

Conclusions can be made, that this set of behaviours are underpinned and promulgated by a set of 'shared' values, and a 'common belief system'. Follow?

Now please follow the above logic, and answer accordingly.
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In other words more deflection. Adam Johnson groomed a child according to the courts and himself. Hence he is very similar to anyone who grooms a child is he not? Why are you ignoring that?

As for shared values.. are you seriously saying that because there in one place in the UK, was a large group of men, some in family with each other, that all Muslims are now pedos? Seriously?!!?!
 
PeteEU said:
Are you kidding me? Irish gangs, Italian gangs, Russian gangs and so on, all have deplorable behaviour towards women and family members are certainly involved. Why are you defending non-Muslim pedo gangs?


In other words more deflection. Adam Johnson groomed a child according to the courts and himself. Hence he is very similar to anyone who grooms a child is he not? Why are you ignoring that?

As for shared values.. are you seriously saying that because there in one place in the UK, was a large group of men, some in family with each other, that all Muslims are now pedos? Seriously?!!?!
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I put it in the simplest form possible, and you haven't followed the basic logic. Please provide the evidence for the Italian and Irish gangs. Remember, to be consistent with the logic you have to demonstrate the very same pattern, over-and-over. Stop deflecting with incoherent babble, and answer the questions.
 
gunner said:
I put it in the simplest form possible, and you haven't followed the basic logic. Please provide the evidence for the Italian and Irish gangs. Remember, to be consistent with the logic you have to demonstrate the very same pattern, over-and-over. Stop deflecting with incoherent babble, and answer the questions.
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Provide evidence of what? That there are multiple family members in these gangs? Are you freaking kidding me?
 
gunner said:
I'll put this as simply, as academically possible.

When using a 'comparative model' the user wishes to prove two outcomes. A- a most similar model, or B- a most dissimilar model. Follow?

My claim to you, is provide me with a 'most similar model' follow?

My premise is: there is no other group of offenders that behave in the very same way. That is, (1) family members (brothers/cousins/uncles) are involved in the organised gangs. (2) these gangs routinely share their victims with other like minded Muslim rape gangs. You follow?

When you talk of "Adam Johnston" as "similar" you are so missing the point, it is frightening. I mean, if you were offering Johnston as a 'most dissimilar' case you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you are not.

If you cannot disprove my premise, then logic dictates, these set of behaviours are distinct to one set of perpetrators. Follow?

Conclusions can be made, that this set of behaviours are underpinned and promulgated by a set of 'shared' values, and a 'common belief system'. Follow?

Now please follow the above logic, and answer accordingly.
Click to expand...

PeteEU said:
Provide evidence of what? That there are multiple family members in these gangs? Are you freaking kidding me?
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Continually saying, "Are you freaking kidding me" does absolutely zero for the discussion.

I've quoted by original premise. Now challenge the premise or move a long. Do you follow?

Edit. There are only two parts. It is very simple.
 
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