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IT'S OFFICIAL: Britain's EU membership will leave us all £20,000 POORER by 2020

Phoenix One UK said:
The link supplied was to UK Parliament not Beano. :roll:
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You see that is the problem that you pose.

You're arguably one of the worst campaigners any camp could not wish to have on their payroll, be that camp Brexit or Bremain.

Your response above is perhaps not the main problem, childish as it is and representative of your reactions once you don't know how to get out of the corners anymore that you get yourselves into.

What happens however is that you

-do not check the credibility of links before posting them
-do not, in case they possess some credibility, check your conclusions on credibility (let alone logic)
-ignore any debunking of your source completely, other than by responding with non-sequiturs and often ad-hominems (often both)
-do not answer questions posed in direct relation to what (anything) you claim
-cherry-pick from the posts that someone has taken the time and trouble to compose in rebuttal of your claims, those things you feel safe in responding to
-failing even there most of the time
-intentionally or not fail to understand what someone has said
-to then misrepresent it in some devious manner designed to make you look right
-of course fail at that too
-deflect when cornered
-prevaricate

and engage in a load of other forms of behavior that I can't be be bothered to think back onto but that serve debate as much (better said as little) as you do.

All of which well documented to anyone who wishes to take the trouble of following your antics.

To top it all by believing yourself able (qualified, knowledgable and experienced enough) to do the Brexit movement any good at all, let alone being of any use to those really here for garnering some information, be that pro or con.

And, apparently unable to learn anything from your experience of months ago, you return in order to engage in exactly the same behavior with exactly the same (non-) results.

If you turned Bremain overnight I'd pull your arguments apart just as much (yes there are plenty of arguments AGAINST Bremain, but I'm not doing your homework for you), be it only to reveal you and and thus to show the extent of dismissal that your arguments deserve.

That's also what debate is about or should be, exposure.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Note New Zealand is also a Commonwealth country.
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Questions:

In view of this extract from the article
"I'm deeply ashamed of how we turned our backs on our Commonwealth kith and kin when we joined the EEC in 1973.
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what caused the turning of backs and what prevents turning the front again right now.

Also, if the "advice" from the POTUS is such an act of arrogant interference, how does that differ from the advice of a N.Z. ex foreign minister and ex deputy P.M.? Especially when considering how discredited the guy is politically and how he hasn't held any government office for years?

Do you actually know that public pressure made him resign as Foreign Minister, seeing how the Serious Fraud Office was after him.

Besides all of which you perhaps can provide some credentials he may hold (has held) in international economics, trade and finance?

Or is this just a game for you in which whoever posts the most supporting soundbites from whichever mouth, relevant or not, reputable or not, proves himself as having the best arguments?
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Yep, I am sure you do. So why don't you have Canada join the EU if you like it so much? Canada will do what is best for Canada, and I have no problem with that. So let us little Brits do what is best for UK and get off this sinking Titanic before we end up going down with it.
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We are not part of Europe geographically and comparatively have much less to do with Europe. Almost 90% of our trade is with the US, except for some trade and historical ties we have almost nothing to do with Europe. The UK on the other hand whether you like it or not, is part of Europe and heavily integrated into the EU, trade and legal wise. We are a part of the European Space Agency though. If the EU fails it will bring down the UK whether or not it stays a part of it.
 
Furthermore, to return to the pipe dream of N.Z., how would the growing number of N.Z. companies that use UK as a base for supplying their products to Europe fare (after a Brexit)?

Would N.Z. scrap PARC?

How would UK (as a possible destination) compete with the increasing exports that N.Z. runs to Asia, what with demand for N.Z. products increasing there?

How would the UK compete with EU exports already, when those very same consist primarily of manufactured goods?
Key word being "manufacture". Germany providing more than a quarter, due to its strength in machinery?
 
Carjosse said:
We are not part of Europe geographically and comparatively have much less to do with Europe. Almost 90% of our trade is with the US, except for some trade and historical ties we have almost nothing to do with Europe. The UK on the other hand whether you like it or not, is part of Europe and heavily integrated into the EU, trade and legal wise. We are a part of the European Space Agency though. If the EU fails it will bring down the UK whether or not it stays a part of it.
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Agreed.

Even where the EU comes in as second biggest trading partner of Canada (after US), it's percentage share of the pie amounts to virtually nothing.

With machinery, chemicals and transport equipment being the main EU exports to Canada, none of these are a field that the UK can show any leadership position in.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
The first article quoted was published by City AM on 22 March 2016, the second by Express on 23 March 2016 (today). Both refer to same report made by "New World Wealth".

Though I would question any financial report regardless of which side of Brexit debate it supports, the one thing Europhiles and critics would have difficulty in disputing is Brussels project is holding us back in the form of uncontrolled immigration, suffocating red tape and despotic restrictions on tax and trade reforms.

The point with regard Brexit would result in downturn in investment had already be blown out of the water given I had quoted a number of industries that are moving their HQ to UK regardless of whether or not the UK remained a member state of EU. These included Boeing, Avon, and Honda.

The issue regarding uncontrolled immigration needs no further mention given this point continues to attract headlines on daily basis.

The issue with regard EU rules/regulations/directives/laws had already been supported with direct EU link to those rules/regulations/directives/laws.

The issue with regard such rules/regulations/directives/laws would still apply should the UK exit the bloc fails to consider that should the UK exit the bloc it could choose whether or not it would apply any, as it would no-longer be compelled to do so by its membership, as it would cease to be a member, and such rules/regulations/directives/laws could not be imposed.
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Do you even read your own sources? Just reading the AM article makes a few red flags go up.

Amolis adds that a Brexit would also allow the UK to bring taxes down
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Eh? If the UK wants to bring taxes down then it can bring taxes down. The EU has no say on taxes.

and free it from EU regulations,
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Which will be replaced by UK regulations...

which restrict growth of its financial services,
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LOL if the EU could restrict "growth" then it would because of too big to fail. So what restrictions are there? None, because the UK has opted out... another lie by the article or the original source from that strange think tank.

hi-tech
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So he is claiming that the EU some how restricts hi-tech investment in the UK? How?

and manufacturing sectors.
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LOL yea right. The major manufactures would most likely leave the UK.. since their markets are in Europe not the UK. Not that there are that many in the UK.

And then there is this gem
Australia has adopted a restrictive immigration policy over the past 15 to 20 years, keeping its population relatively small and only admitting skilled migrants, based on a points system, NWW explains.

As a result, Australia’s average wealth per person has gone up by 250 per cent from $59,000 in 2000 to $204,000 in 2015. Over the same period, the average UK person's wealth has gone up by only 58 per cent from $93,000 in 2000 to $147,000 in 2015.
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Here they are totally ignoring the truth because it does not fit their political view. Australias average wealth rise is due to exploiting natural resources and the rise of China. It has absolutely nothing to do with immigration.

The New World Wealth is a hack.. look at their web site. It is one man most likely trying to get his 15 minutes of fame.
 
As an American, I'd advise the Brits to get out while they can peaceably. These sort of federations have a tendency to become permanent, no exit affairs despite the founding documents making no such claim. Whether it's good economically is irrelevant, unless you're willing to sell your autonomy and indepedence for some coin.
 
Carjosse said:
We are not part of Europe geographically and comparatively have much less to do with Europe. Almost 90% of our trade is with the US, except for some trade and historical ties we have almost nothing to do with Europe. The UK on the other hand whether you like it or not, is part of Europe and heavily integrated into the EU, trade and legal wise. We are a part of the European Space Agency though. If the EU fails it will bring down the UK whether or not it stays a part of it.
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Last I looked there were over 200 countries on the planet with 51 in Europe (I believe). Only 28 are in EU (at present). Further, The USA, Canada, China, Japan, etc are not in Europe, but trade with countries in Europe, including EU member states. Further still, I had already supplied an example regarding Canadian exports to UK, and I seriously doubt Canada would cease such exports if UK terminated its EU membership. I should further point out that USA also exports to UK and visa-versa, and I had seen nothing to support such would stop in the event of Brexit.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Last I looked there were over 200 countries on the planet with 51 in Europe (I believe). Only 28 are in EU (at present). Further, The USA, Canada, China, Japan, etc are not in Europe, but trade with countries in Europe, including EU member states. Further still, I had already supplied an example regarding Canadian exports to UK, and I seriously doubt Canada would cease such exports if UK terminated its EU membership. I should further point out that USA also exports to UK and visa-versa, and I had seen nothing to support such would stop in the event of Brexit.
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That does not matter, we would still trade more with the EU than we would a separate Britain, and on top of that we would have to make another trade deal. Most countries trade with their geographic neighbors, do you know who Britain is geographically closet to? The EU.
 
Citizen.Seven said:
As an American, I'd advise the Brits to get out while they can peaceably. These sort of federations have a tendency to become permanent, no exit affairs despite the founding documents making no such claim. Whether it's good economically is irrelevant, unless you're willing to sell your autonomy and indepedence for some coin.
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These sort of federations have a tendency to become permanent because they are meant to be, and that was the understanding from the beginning.
 
Carjosse said:
That does not matter, we would still trade more with the EU than we would a separate Britain, and on top of that we would have to make another trade deal. Most countries trade with their geographic neighbors, do you know who Britain is geographically closet to? The EU.
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Rubbish.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Disprove it. And good luck with that.
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Lame.

Even where not unexpected.

Instead of most pathetically dismissing salient points raised as rubbish, you might, were you to show yourself capable of debate, show where they are untrue.

Not you though, eh?
 
Chagos said:
Instead of most pathetically dismissing salient points raised as rubbish, you might, were you to show yourself capable of debate, show where they are untrue.

Not you though, eh?
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Already did. See post #5 on page #1 of this thread.

Here is the link being referred to, AGAIN:

Top Canadian Exports

Note Canada's top ten export markets are USA, China, UK, Japan, Mexico, India, South Korea, Hong Kong, Germany, Netherlands, and France. Further, the EU does not have any industry. It has no export/import markets, as it is an organisation not state. It doesn't even have a population. To even suggest that Canada would cease trading with UK should it exit the bloc is absurd. Further still, the UK has invested a great deal in Canada, and Canada has also invested a great deal in UK. However, that aside, and returning to what was said, note the top ten Canadian markets listed. Further, note China, Japan, India, South Korea, Hong Kong, Germany, Netherlands, France, and UK are not even on same continent as Canada.

Is any of this sinking in? :roll:
 
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Phoenix One UK said:
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So in meanwhile over 36 hours you haven't read anything that's been posted? Let alone let it sink in?

Simply because it disagrees with yet another of your prevaricating entries in which you presented merely a small portion of the actual picture so as to prop your bias with irrelevancies?

To supposedly now supplement it with Canadian exports, those that don't say a darn thing about the overall trade relation with the EU?

I'd link you to the posts that say otherwise but what's the use?
 
Chagos said:
So in meanwhile over 36 hours you haven't read anything that's been posted? Let alone let it sink in?

Simply because it disagrees with yet another of your prevaricating entries in which you presented merely a small portion of the actual picture so as to prop your bias with irrelevancies?

To supposedly now supplement it with Canadian exports, those that don't say a darn thing about the overall trade relation with the EU?

I'd link you to the posts that say otherwise but what's the use?
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Given my posts were directed at another poster who resides in Canada, I believe my posts were spot on. :roll:
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Given my posts were directed at another poster who resides in Canada, I believe my posts were spot on. :roll:
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Owwwww.

I didn't know perversions of logic (an oxymoron as such, actually) could cause actual pain.

So if you address your entries at Mars (possibly a blessing), that makes you even more right?

Gawd, the people one gets to meet.
 
The UK top ten exports in goods are: USA, Germany, Netherlands, France, Irish Republic, Belgium, China, Spain, Italy, Switzerland. Note USA takes first place with Germany second. Further, the UK would trade with European countries, including EU member states, regardless of its own EU membership. Fact is, the UK had been trading with Europe for centuries, and long before even the concept of EU was even born.
 
So?

link?

compared to imports?

each by goods (and yes, services as well)?

Without any (let alone all) of which, the statement made says absolutely nothing in support or rejection of any claim on the Bremain/Brexit issue.

As any accountant would know
 
Chagos said:
So?

link?

compared to imports?

each by goods (and yes, services as well)?

Without any (let alone all) of which, the statement made says absolutely nothing in support or rejection of any claim on the Bremain/Brexit issue.

As any accountant would know
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Are you disputing what I posted? :roll:
 
Chagos said:
Asking for corroboration of greater relevance (to the promoted cause) should be clear even to you.
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Trade in goods – geographical analysis


The USA remains the UK's top export partner with exports of £4.4 billion in June 2015. There were record highs in the level of exports to Uruguay in June 2015, with an increase of £0.1 billion (650.0%). This, together with a small decrease in imports, meant the UK’s trade surplus with Uruguay was also at a record high of £0.1 billion. Anecdotal evidence suggests this increase is due to a rise in the export of crude oil.

Germany remains the UK’s top import partner with imports of £5.3 billion in June 2015. There were no significant monthly import movements in June 2015.
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Note Germany is the top import partner, which should raise the question of, would Germany cease trading or enter a trade war with UK in the event of Brexit.

Are you sure you want the link? :roll:
 
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