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Europe: Yes! EU: No!

Higgins86 said:
No he said before he wouldn't run for a third term.
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2016-2020. Boris the clown is positioning himself, he cut his hair and joined the out campaign.
 
PakPuk said:
Power? The other members out vote the UK all of the time. As one nation we only have a small number of MEP's which are basically irrelevant in setting the agenda as that all comes from the unelected commission.
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-There are a number of very important areas, where unanimity is required.
-There any member can prevent decisions.
-The high court can decide against the European Court and force the issue of sovereignty.
-The number of countries that want to reduce interference by the EU has increased and is growing. This means the UK will become more easily able to block decisions.

The UK has not used these powers very much.
 
joG said:
-There are a number of very important areas, where unanimity is required.
-There any member can prevent decisions.
-The high court can decide against the European Court and force the issue of sovereignty.
-The number of countries that want to reduce interference by the EU has increased and is growing. This means the UK will become more easily able to block decisions.

The UK has not used these powers very much.
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Maybe they don't use them because they can't? If they could surly they would over rule any new EU law which is passed which is not favorable to the interests of the UK.
 
To shed some light here

In the European Union, double majority voting is a form of Qualified Majority Voting which is to apply to almost all policy areas starting in 2014 under the Treaty of Lisbon. Any decision taken under this scheme will require the support of at least 55% of the Council of the European Union members who must also represent at least 65% of the EU's citizens.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_majority#European_Union

since Lisbon.

Also see Nice and the right hand side table next to it.
 
Higgins86 said:
I'm not European and I don't no many fellow countrymen that would ever refer to themselves as European. Let us not forget that we as a nation have been at odds with the European continent for thousands of years.
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During those 'thousands of years' the 'we' of your post all came from Europe. The Celts - the original Britons - then the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Normans. So like it or not you are European. So, remembering that during the Middle Ages large parts of France were English, change your 'thousands' to something like '600'.
 
Andalublue said:
I think you are out of touch with what majority feeling is in the UK, Higgins. You are a self-confessed forces brat. You've been immersed in the jingoism of military rhetoric your whole life. That is NOT a reflection on what most British people feel or believe. I'd say the vast majority recognise themselves as European - for some of them before feeling British, for others a long way after, but they still recognise it. I suspect those people you 'no' (sic) might all be similarly indoctrinated in that archaic form of nationalism that is virtually obligatory in the armed forces.

Well, we've certainly been invaded many times and have done our fair share of rapine and pillage, but which European nation hasn't? That kind of defines us as a quintessential European people. Are you saying our culture, language and society isn't European?

I think you're in some kind of weird denial.
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So what? As the OP pointed out it is perfectly possible to love Europe, feel European and hate the EU. I do, and so do many people who live on the European mainland.
 
Chagos said:
Nice equation.

What like EU = Hitler.:roll:

Poor Godwin, he never intended this.
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That was not what he said or implied.
 
Sweden said:
Fox on Friday: Europe and the EU are not one and the same - The Conservative Woman

Exactly my position. I am intensely European but loathe the EU. Few are more 'European' than me. Born in one E country and citizen of two others. Educated in a fourth, lived in a fifth, sixth, and seventh.

Every European country has its identity. Attempts to flatten these out and impose a false uniformity from above were doomed to fail which is why the EU is a misconceived monstrosity.
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How does the EU imposes a doomed flattening uniformity over every countries national identity and culture?
 
DDD said:
How does the EU imposes a doomed flattening uniformity over every countries national identity and culture?
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You're not supposed to ask questions which would demand factual proof.

Basically the Brexit campaign claims the EU is supposed to run our country, set our taxes, make our laws for us, run our military and now according to the OP they impose uniformity or homogeneity on us. :lamo

All I want from the Brexit camp is to show what plan there is if we Brexit? Who would we export to? What differences would there really be if we left to the governance, industry and security of this country.

joG said:
I certainly tend to feel Europe less interesting and vibrant than years gone by. Too much "harmonization" by far. But at least you can get a good Döner sandwich in almost every major European city now! ;)
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So if I can get a McDonalds in any city in Europe (If I really wanted to east such a monstrosity) does that mean we are harmonised with the EU or the USA?

Try a better argument.
 
Sweden said:
Since the revised Qualified Majority Voting system was introduced the UK has been on the losing side every time. 'Forcing change from within' is an impossibility. The UK has no power over the EU.

Is the UK a winner or loser in the EU Council? | World news | The Guardian
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I looked at the majority calculator I had posted you earlier. From that it did seem that blocking minorities were not so difficult and would be relatively well available since the number of countries supporting increased shifts of sovereignty to Brussels has fallen markedly.
 
Higgins86 said:
~ Ask Gunner or IC if they are British or European and I'd be shocked if they said the latter.
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British.

Andalublue said:
~ I suspect those people you 'no' (sic) might all be similarly indoctrinated in that archaic form of nationalism that is virtually obligatory in the armed forces ~
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Low blow Andy and very untrue. I'd be surprised to find anything serious that would back you up. My personal decision to sign up was based on honour and obligation but also a huge sense of personal challenge and opportunity.
 
DDD said:
How does the EU imposes a doomed flattening uniformity over every countries national identity and culture?
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Because it imposes one size fits no one policies. Or, maybe, one size fits France and Germany. Take the Common Agricultural Policy: the idea that the same policy could possibly suit both Greece and Sweden, say, is absurd. Both could design much more appropriate policies to fit their circumstances for themselves.

I do not think that national cultures are flattened in quite the same manner. Except for the Important exception of political culture; the peoples' elected representative systematically have power and therefore authority and responsibility removed from them.
 
PakPuk said:
Being ethnically European which I am is different from saying you are European just like an American says they are an American, it is a joke. Cameron is actually hated even by a lot of his own party but there are a lot more people that want to come out of the EU than want to stay.
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Citizens of the USA have always got away with pretending that 'American' describes themselves. The ignore the obvious - that Canadians and Chileans and everyone in between are also Americans. I suppose we should correct them every time they use the word. Though I must confess that I sometimes do it myself, to my shame. I suppose this goes back to the time when, in England at least, 'American' meant those who lived in Britain's American colonies.
 
Sweden said:
That was not what he said or implied.
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......read it as you wish, the poster's affinity for citing 3rd Reich examples are documented by now.
 
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PakPuk said:
1. Have you even been to the UK... in fact a better question have you been outside of London if you have been to the UK because trust me the capital and the rest of the country are completely different.
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When I visit the UK I visit Lincolnshire, North Yorkshire, Manchester, Bristol and London. The division tends to be between rural and urban areas, not north-south, not London vs. the rest.

2. England/UK has been an independent nation which has not been invaded once for almost 1,000 years that is if you knew history.
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Clearly I know my history considerably better than you. There have been numerous invasions of England since 1066, two entirely successful invasions in 1326 and 1688. The Scottish have invaded many times, the French have done it and various rebel invasions too. Read a book!

3. UKIP are regularly polling around 16% in the polls up from 12% they scored in the 2015 general election only a few months ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
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And we all know how accurate opinion polling is these days, don't we? Ask Prime Minister Milliband. :roll:

4. The mayor of London/justice sec/work and pensions sec and other prominent people within the Conservative party are campaigning to leave.
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Yes, they're all a part of the third of Tory MPs supporting Brexit.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Low blow Andy and very untrue. I'd be surprised to find anything serious that would back you up. My personal decision to sign up was based on honour and obligation but also a huge sense of personal challenge and opportunity.
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I'm not referring to your, unquestionably honourable, motivations for joining the forces, IC. I appreciate your service and commitment to the nation 100%. My point is the effect on the attitudes and political outlook of those who spend a significant period of time in the armed forces. It inevitably inculcates a particular strain of nationalism and patriotism in those who serve and its upper echelons are drawn predominantly from the ruling classes whose political DNA makes an internationalist outlook highly unlikely.

No offence intended to you, Gunner or Higgins, I promise you.
 
And it makes Europe less interesting. I hope that Germany remains Germany, Sweden, Sweden, Spain, Spain (or at least Catalonia, Basque, Castilian, Andalusian), etc.
 
Andalublue said:
I'm not referring to your, unquestionably honourable, motivations for joining the forces, IC. I appreciate your service and commitment to the nation 100%. My point is the effect on the attitudes and political outlook of those who spend a significant period of time in the armed forces. It inevitably inculcates a particular strain of nationalism and patriotism in those who serve and its upper echelons are drawn predominantly from the ruling classes whose political DNA makes an internationalist outlook highly unlikely.

No offence intended to you, Gunner or Higgins, I promise you.
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I didn't take offence but it was a cheap shot nonetheless. You'd also be surprised that many of those in the upper echelons would be people with strong international links and experience. I acknowledge that many officer types would have come through selective schools and been trained and bred with a surprisingly broader experience than you would imagine. My father broke with his family tradition but the naval officers he came from travelled widely in the 19th Century and had homes and links in many European countries. My father was actually born on his families French estate in 1905 and they travelled regularly even though they came from a strong Devon / Cornwall heritage and property at the time.

I was a different "black sheep" having an African mother and I went with army rather than navy and I had no intention or desire to go as an officer. I just think you either met a very particular type of military man or you haven't me enough - I met some really honourable people, loyal to their country but I wouldn't classify most as not having an internationals outlook. Many join now because it was a good way to see and experience the world and most have a respect for different cultures that would surprise you.
 
Sweden said:
Because it imposes one size fits no one policies. Or, maybe, one size fits France and Germany. Take the Common Agricultural Policy: the idea that the same policy could possibly suit both Greece and Sweden, say, is absurd. Both could design much more appropriate policies to fit their circumstances for themselves.

I do not think that national cultures are flattened in quite the same manner. Except for the Important exception of political culture; the peoples' elected representative systematically have power and therefore authority and responsibility removed from them.
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I do not mind uniform political and economical structure cause those seem to work at present time.
 
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