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UK EU referendum [W:40:728]

EU UK Referendum - leave or stay?

  • The UK should leave the EU whether reformed or not

    Votes: 38 64.4%

  • The UK should leave if the EU does not agree reform

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The UK should stay whether reformed or not.

    Votes: 18 30.5%

  • The UK should stay if the EU agrees reforms

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • Total voters
    59
Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

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Simple question - leave or stay?

What are your reasons for leaving? What are your reasons for staying?

It's probably the biggest issue in the UK at the moment and there may be a referendum in July so I guess the more we know, the better informed our decision will be.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I think the people of the UK should decide what's best for them and not be influenced by arbitrary pressure to "keep the club alive". While I don't mind the EU as a whole, I absolutely despise the notion that we should all just learn to deal with it because the consequences of leaving the club we created out of thin air would be too dire. Ideas should be constantly reevaluated and no idea is too precious to be scrutinized.

In reality, the world will be fine if the UK decided to work and trade with the EU like they do now but simply as a non-member. It's mostly fear tactics.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Infinite Chaos said:
Simple question - leave or stay?

What are your reasons for leaving? What are your reasons for staying?

It's probably the biggest issue in the UK at the moment and there may be a referendum in July so I guess the more we know, the better informed our decision will be.
Click to expand...

Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

Economically, the UK will be royally effed if it leaves the EU: it will still need to abide by all those regulations that form the backbone of the 'out' argument, otherwise it will not be able to trade with the EU. The global corporations will leave, so goodbye Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tata, and tens of thousands of jobs, welcome home tens of thousands of expats who no longer qualify to work and/or remain in EU countries.

The idea that leaving the EU will result in the repatriation of democratic powers to the British people is a sad joke when the corporately-owned Tory government has no interest in seeing any such thing as democracy - witness their electoral gerrymandering, hostility to devolution and sad, electioneering lies about decentralisation and the creation of a 'Northern Powerhouse'. Funny how George Osborne hasn't mentioned that since the election, isn't it?

I hate much about the EU - the Christian capitalists' club - and hope to see Schäuble, Dijsselbloem, Merkel and the bunch kicked hard in the nads, but my dislike how the EU is currently operating doesn't make me want to ditch it, but want to change it. It certainly doesn't drive me into the arms of crypto-fascists, ethnic nationalists and corporatist libertarians.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.
Click to expand...

Balderdash. The main reason for peace is that it has gotten too dangerous and counterproductive for modern states to wage war.

Economically, the UK will be royally effed if it leaves the EU: it will still need to abide by all those regulations that form the backbone of the 'out' argument, otherwise it will not be able to trade with the EU. The global corporations will leave, so goodbye Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tata, and tens of thousands of jobs, welcome home tens of thousands of expats who no longer qualify to work and/or remain in EU countries.
Click to expand...

Absurd. There would be no reason for corporations to leave. The EU would be cutting off its nose to spite its face to cut the UK off that way. The EU still needs rich countries with which to trade.

The idea that leaving the EU will result in the repatriation of democratic powers to the British people is a sad joke when the corporately-owned Tory government has no interest in seeing any such thing as democracy - witness their electoral gerrymandering, hostility to devolution and sad, electioneering lies about decentralisation and the creation of a 'Northern Powerhouse'. Funny how George Osborne hasn't mentioned that since the election, isn't it?
Click to expand...

There's no use in even trying to regain national sovereignty? It seems to me that poor countries like Spain are anxious to keep rich countries from leaving the EU, or else who is going to pay for their rail system and what not? Who is going to loan them money they won't pay back?

I hate much about the EU - the Christian capitalists' club - and hope to see Schäuble, Dijsselbloem, Merkel and the bunch kicked hard in the nads, but my dislike how the EU is currently operating doesn't make me want to ditch it, but want to change it. It certainly doesn't drive me into the arms of crypto-fascists, ethnic nationalists and corporatist libertarians.
Click to expand...

Gosh, who would ever want to leave a mooching bunch of trash? Who would ever want to leave the hyper-regulating arrogant pricks in Brussels?
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

It certainly is the biggest issue in the Uk at the moment and actually has been for a number of years. The problem with the debate here is that the out campaign has largely been high jacked by the right. For years Labour Party members like me laughed gleefully from the sidelines, whilst the Conservative Party tore itself apart over the issue. What we forgot is that we were always rather opposed to the concept of the EU on the basis it is a capitalist club that takes away our democracy in favour of big business. However, we sort of came to love it, because it brought social change- minimum wage, Human Right Act etc- and we are essentially internationalists. Also, we didn't want to be associated with the "retired Colonel Blimps and swivel eyed loons", who want to return us to a supposed Little England golden age of the 1950's.

What will be interesting leading up the vote is to what extent the hard left support an out vote. I suspect they haven't got the appetite for it and will campaign on the basis of, it's better to change it from the inside.

To answer the question, my money is on voting to stay in. I think the fear of the unknown if we leave will be a crucial factor and the stay campaign has the money and organisation behind it. What is for sure, is that it is an issue that's not going to go away, regardless of the referendum.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Jack of Devon said:
It certainly is the biggest issue in the Uk at the moment and actually has been for a number of years. The problem with the debate here is that the out campaign has largely been high jacked by the right. For years Labour Party members like me laughed gleefully from the sidelines, whilst the Conservative Party tore itself apart over the issue. What we forgot is that we were always rather opposed to the concept of the EU on the basis it is a capitalist club that takes away our democracy in favour of big business. However, we sort of came to love it, because it brought social change- minimum wage, Human Right Act etc- and we are essentially internationalists. Also, we didn't want to be associated with the "retired Colonel Blimps and swivel eyed loons", who want to return us to a supposed Little England golden age of the 1950's.
Click to expand...

Some really good points, yes the Labour Party was equally split with its own anti and pro parties - I remember Peter Shore making some very strong arguments about staying in or leaving but I also think the Labour Party tried to learn (under Blair) that perceived unity which the conservatives were famous for. Ironic now that the Conservatives own divisions are so public and have been for a few years.

Jack of Devon said:
~ the "retired Colonel Blimps and swivel eyed loons", who want to return us to a supposed Little England golden age of the 1950's.
Click to expand...

There's a good article here charting some of the historical developments and economic change that has driven development in the UK since WW2. Ironic that the golden age did actually exist but it was also the end of empire and the beginning of UK turning it's back on trading partners in the empire.

I personally wonder whether we would ever get back those Australian and New Zealand markets which we once developed. I'd like to see the UK develop those markets again - as well as looking more seriously at China and India as export partners.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Infinite Chaos said:
Simple question - leave or stay?

What are your reasons for leaving? What are your reasons for staying?

It's probably the biggest issue in the UK at the moment and there may be a referendum in July so I guess the more we know, the better informed our decision will be.
Click to expand...

Why not renegotiate on terms like the Swiss?
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
Stay, obviously.

Despite what the 'out' campaigners say, the EU has been the single most important factor in the maintenance of peace in Europe since the end of WWII.

Economically, the UK will be royally effed if it leaves the EU: it will still need to abide by all those regulations that form the backbone of the 'out' argument, otherwise it will not be able to trade with the EU. The global corporations will leave, so goodbye Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Tata, and tens of thousands of jobs, welcome home tens of thousands of expats who no longer qualify to work and/or remain in EU countries.

The idea that leaving the EU will result in the repatriation of democratic powers to the British people is a sad joke when the corporately-owned Tory government has no interest in seeing any such thing as democracy - witness their electoral gerrymandering, hostility to devolution and sad, electioneering lies about decentralisation and the creation of a 'Northern Powerhouse'. Funny how George Osborne hasn't mentioned that since the election, isn't it?

I hate much about the EU - the Christian capitalists' club - and hope to see Schäuble, Dijsselbloem, Merkel and the bunch kicked hard in the nads, but my dislike how the EU is currently operating doesn't make me want to ditch it, but want to change it. It certainly doesn't drive me into the arms of crypto-fascists, ethnic nationalists and corporatist libertarians.
Click to expand...

I thought NATO created peace in Europe? Why do you need an unelected political union?
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Harry Guerrilla said:
Why not renegotiate on terms like the Swiss?
Click to expand...

The argument is that Switzerland has to accept decisions the EU makes and as an outsider, she has no say on how those decisions are made. Switzerland has to accept the free movement principle which has so far been something we are arguing against.

We're not Switzerland (although some of the biggest companies in the world are Swiss) but we are a bigger economy and going to be even bigger so we need to negotiate much better terms than the Swiss have.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

LowDown said:
Balderdash. The main reason for peace is that it has gotten too dangerous and counterproductive for modern states to wage war.
Click to expand...
So, nothing to do with a continent-wide desire for peace and co-existence?


Absurd. There would be no reason for corporations to leave.
Click to expand...
Yes, there would. They'd have no direct access to European markets. If the UK were outside the EU, they would be trading with the EU on the same basis as Japan or the USA. Why would Ford or Toyota bother to produce in the UK? Cut out the middle and export to the EU directly from base, or mve production to the EU.

The EU would be cutting off its nose to spite its face to cut the UK off that way. The EU still needs rich countries with which to trade.
Click to expand...
I didn't say the EU would refuse to trade with the UK. They'd be happy to keep trading, but under the same rules and regs that currently apply. The difference would be that henceforth the UK has no say in the writing of those rules.

There's no use in even trying to regain national sovereignty?
Click to expand...
That depends on who they are wanting to exercise sovereignty. It's certainly not the British people.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Infinite Chaos said:
The argument is that Switzerland has to accept decisions the EU makes and as an outsider, she has no say on how those decisions are made. Switzerland has to accept the free movement principle which has so far been something we are arguing against.

We're not Switzerland (although some of the biggest companies in the world are Swiss) but we are a bigger economy and going to be even bigger so we need to negotiate much better terms than the Swiss have.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
I think the EU is likely to lead to a super state, marginalizing the diverse cultures of Europe.
Maybe not in our lifetime, not that far down the road.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Harry Guerrilla said:
Fair enough.
I think the EU is likely to lead to a super state, marginalizing the diverse cultures of Europe.
Maybe not in our lifetime, not that far down the road.
Click to expand...

I don't say this with any rancour, but I believe that the biggest threat to the diverse cultures of Europe is from American cultural hegemony. The EU actually devotes a lot of support and money to preserving our cultural diversity - ask the Welsh, the Gallegos, or the Irish. Super state ≠ (necessarily) to mono-culture.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
I don't say this with any rancour, but I believe that the biggest threat to the diverse cultures of Europe is from American cultural hegemony. The EU actually devotes a lot of support and money to preserving our cultural diversity - ask the Welsh, the Gallegos, or the Irish. Super state ≠ (necessarily) to mono-culture.
Click to expand...

Well, I kinda feel the same way about the Southern US.
I do see your point though.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
You know that per capita the Swiss have over twice the rate of immigration than the UK, don't you? The entire axis of the out campaign is the migration issue.
Click to expand...

Hard for Switzerland to control its borders when it is completely surrounded by countries which are border less. It is Switzerland's governments choice to import a cheap work force. Is the Swiss dislike that then they can vote for parties which will reduce immigration. The UK also has an advantage as the majority of it does not have a land border with another country.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
I don't say this with any rancour, but I believe that the biggest threat to the diverse cultures of Europe is from American cultural hegemony. The EU actually devotes a lot of support and money to preserving our cultural diversity - ask the Welsh, the Gallegos, or the Irish. Super state ≠ (necessarily) to mono-culture.
Click to expand...
They hate cultures and identities, the less of it there is the less resistance there is to expanding EU powers. Britain's culture is still even after over a decade of mass immigration remains strong.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Harry Guerrilla said:
Nope but I was under the idea that the Swiss were with the EU on more of their own terms.
Click to expand...

They are not. Nor is Norway.

It is simple... the Swiss and Norwegians have to follow pretty much every EU law/directive to have access to the EU market. They also have to act as an external border and have lots of "restrictions" if you can call it that.. on what they can and can not do.

Now an example of what the Swiss have been forced to do... reduce their bank secrecy laws. They were basically told by the EU on behalf of the members states... either you give us access to your banking information so we can catch the tax dodgers or we will reduce your access to the common market. The Swiss agreed.

So basically what the Swiss have and the Norwegians is a political "we are independent" but in reality they are part of the EU with no voting or negotiation rights. Of course they could just tear up the agreement.. which would be suicide but hey!
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PakPuk said:
Hard for Switzerland to control its borders when it is completely surrounded by countries which are border less.
Click to expand...

Eh? You do understand that the Swiss is borderless as well for EU member citizens right? The Swiss have full control over who they invite inside from outside the EU.

It is Switzerland's governments choice to import a cheap work force.
Click to expand...

No. Most of the imported work force are highly educated people working in the banking and pharma industry.

Is the Swiss dislike that then they can vote for parties which will reduce immigration.
Click to expand...

Rural parts of Switzerland vote for parties like this.. but sad part.. the rural areas are where there are by far the least amount of foreigners..
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PakPuk said:
I thought NATO created peace in Europe? Why do you need an unelected political union?
Click to expand...

NATO did create peace in Europe. It's just difficult for the Far Left and the Far Right to acknowledge it.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Andalublue said:
I don't say this with any rancour, but I believe that the biggest threat to the diverse cultures of Europe is from American cultural hegemony. The EU actually devotes a lot of support and money to preserving our cultural diversity - ask the Welsh, the Gallegos, or the Irish. Super state ≠ (necessarily) to mono-culture.
Click to expand...

Of course you don't! :lamo
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

PeteEU said:
They are not. Nor is Norway.

It is simple... the Swiss and Norwegians have to follow pretty much every EU law/directive to have access to the EU market. They also have to act as an external border and have lots of "restrictions" if you can call it that.. on what they can and can not do.

Now an example of what the Swiss have been forced to do... reduce their bank secrecy laws. They were basically told by the EU on behalf of the members states... either you give us access to your banking information so we can catch the tax dodgers or we will reduce your access to the common market. The Swiss agreed.

So basically what the Swiss have and the Norwegians is a political "we are independent" but in reality they are part of the EU with no voting or negotiation rights. Of course they could just tear up the agreement.. which would be suicide but hey!
Click to expand...

That's kinda what I don't like.
It's a big stick to whack nations with.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The only reason I do not think it would be a good idea for the UK to leave the EU; is it would essentially render the UK extinct. Scotland would leave, and would probably initiate a 'domino effect' of sorts causing Northern Ireland and Wales to follow shortly thereafter. The former would more than likely go back to Ireland, with nowhere else to go, or Scotland. This would leave England isolated on the international stage at a time of increasing Russian aggression and Islamic terrorism. England would probably also lose NATO and critical American ties. This is what my head tells me, anyway.

In my heart I am all for it, if they can convince Scotland to work with them and the Irish inside of a sort of 'British-Celtic Union' of sorts to compliment the EU, whilst persevering their cultural 'British Isles heartland' of sorts.
 
re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Harry Guerrilla said:
That's kinda what I don't like.
It's a big stick to whack nations with.
Click to expand...

No you dont like it is not your nation/you that is doing the whacking... that is what the anti-EU people want, which is why most come from the right wing with ties to the UK and US.
 
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