Immigration and Right Wing Politics (United States vs. Europe)

On the subject of immigration, Americans have long been judged by Europeans as being nationalistic and ridiculously backwards when it comes to welcoming immigrants to the country. However, we have continued to allow millions of new immigrants on a consistent basis in spite of the right wing of our country.

Now that Europe is facing similar levels of immigration that the United States faces on a yearly basis we are quickly seeing the rise of right wing politicians. Marie Le Pen in France, PEGIDA in Germany, Etc. As for specific instances of violence against immigrants recently: in Sweden we saw 100 or more men gather and run around assaulting anyone they perceived as a foreigner; In Germany a hand grenade (that luckily did not explode) was hurled at refugees; migrants were banned from a swimming pool in Germany...etc.

So my question is now that Europe is finally facing a problem that The United States has long faced (immigration on a massive scale) can anyone argue that Europe has handled it with any less racism, bigotry, violence or extremism than the US has?

International10 said:

On the subject of immigration, Americans have long been judged by Europeans as being nationalistic and ridiculously backwards when it comes to welcoming immigrants to the country. However, we have continued to allow millions of new immigrants on a consistent basis in spite of the right wing of our country.

Now that Europe is facing similar levels of immigration that the United States faces on a yearly basis we are quickly seeing the rise of right wing politicians. Marie Le Pen in France, PEGIDA in Germany, Etc. As for specific instances of violence against immigrants recently: in Sweden we saw 100 or more men gather and run around assaulting anyone they perceived as a foreigner; In Germany a hand grenade (that luckily did not explode) was hurled at refugees; migrants were banned from a swimming pool in Germany...etc.

So my question is now that Europe is finally facing a problem that The United States has long faced (immigration on a massive scale) can anyone argue that Europe has handled it with any less racism, bigotry, violence or extremism than the US has?

Click to expand...

Your question gets of on the wrong foot from the get go.

The USA has welcomed in more legal immigrants than any country on earth during the past 250 years.

International10 said:

Now that Europe is facing similar levels of immigration that the United States faces on a yearly basis we are quickly seeing the rise of right wing politicians. Marie Le Pen in France, PEGIDA in Germany, Etc.

Click to expand...

Yeah, thing is? Those parties have been around for a long time, and not all their growth is due to immigration. For example, Le Pen is still right-wing, but has moved to the center (at least nominally) for years.

Another factor is that the hard right (especially National Front) used to be rejected due to its fascist tendencies, a factor far more influential with older generations that had some experience with real fascist parties in power. A 20 year old might have bumped into a few skinheads, but is less likely to know or care about the abuses of a Mussolini or a Franco.

The immigration issue isn't new, either. France has dealt with Muslim immigrants for decades, many linked to its colonial era, many from Algeria. Germany realized a long time ago that it needed a younger workforce, and invited Turks to live and work in Germany, although they kept those immigrants at arm's length. Indian and Pakistanis have immigrated to the UK for decades. When the "Irish Tiger" was roaring, many of the locals were outraged over Polish immigrants (legal, because of EU regs) and Africans (mostly asylum seekers). Somehow, they forgot that millions of their ancestors migrated to the US, and expected to be treated well there.

This is not a new issue. The only thing that's really new is that Europe is now experiencing a fraction of the refugees fleeing Syria, and some opportunistic politicians are linking it to terrorism (also not a new issue; anyone remember Baader Meinhof or Red Faction?). Most of those refugees are in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan.

As for specific instances of violence against immigrants recently: in Sweden we saw 100 or more men gather and run around assaulting anyone they perceived as a foreigner; In Germany a hand grenade (that luckily did not explode) was hurled at refugees; migrants were banned from a swimming pool in Germany...etc.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's worked out well in the past

This type of violence is also not particularly new. Did you miss La Haine when it was in theaters?

So my question is now that Europe is finally facing a problem that The United States has long faced (immigration on a massive scale) can anyone argue that Europe has handled it with any less racism, bigotry, violence or extremism than the US has?

Click to expand...

Ehhhhh

The far right in Europe is just as racist and bigoted as the nativists are in the US.

Europe has a longer tradition of smaller political parties, of parliamentary government. The US really only has two parties, meaning the nativists are either co-opted into them (almost always Republican nowadays) or are essentially outside the system (e.g. neo-Nazis in the US have minimal electoral participation). Someone like Arpaio (Phoenix sheriff, notoriously anti-immigrant) is an exception.

Anti-immigrant violence in the US tends to be more systemic than citizen. Comparisons are tough, and not all that useful.

RetiredUSN said:

Your question gets of on the wrong foot from the get go.

The USA has welcomed in more legal immigrants than any country on earth during the past 250 years.

Click to expand...

How does it get off on the wrong foot. I begin by saying that we are "constantly judged by Europeans" even though we "consistently allow millions of migrants into our country".

International10 said:

How does it get off on the wrong foot. I begin by saying that we are "constantly judged by Europeans" even though we "consistently allow millions of migrants into our country".

Click to expand...

You know what? I should have taken more time reading your opening paragraph.

I went back reread it. The word "judged" slapped me on side the head.:doh

Please accept my apology pards?

Visbek said:

Yeah, thing is? Those parties have been around for a long time, and not all their growth is due to immigration. For example, Le Pen is still right-wing, but has moved to the center (at least nominally) for years.

Another factor is that the hard right (especially National Front) used to be rejected due to its fascist tendencies, a factor far more influential with older generations that had some experience with real fascist parties in power. A 20 year old might have bumped into a few skinheads, but is less likely to know or care about the abuses of a Mussolini or a Franco.

The immigration issue isn't new, either. France has dealt with Muslim immigrants for decades, many linked to its colonial era, many from Algeria. Germany realized a long time ago that it needed a younger workforce, and invited Turks to live and work in Germany, although they kept those immigrants at arm's length. Indian and Pakistanis have immigrated to the UK for decades. When the "Irish Tiger" was roaring, many of the locals were outraged over Polish immigrants (legal, because of EU regs) and Africans (mostly asylum seekers). Somehow, they forgot that millions of their ancestors migrated to the US, and expected to be treated well there.

This is not a new issue. The only thing that's really new is that Europe is now experiencing a fraction of the refugees fleeing Syria, and some opportunistic politicians are linking it to terrorism (also not a new issue; anyone remember Baader Meinhof or Red Faction?). Most of those refugees are in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan.



Yeah, that's worked out well in the past

This type of violence is also not particularly new. Did you miss La Haine when it was in theaters?



Ehhhhh

The far right in Europe is just as racist and bigoted as the nativists are in the US.

Europe has a longer tradition of smaller political parties, of parliamentary government. The US really only has two parties, meaning the nativists are either co-opted into them (almost always Republican nowadays) or are essentially outside the system (e.g. neo-Nazis in the US have minimal electoral participation). Someone like Arpaio (Phoenix sheriff, notoriously anti-immigrant) is an exception.

Anti-immigrant violence in the US tends to be more systemic than citizen. Comparisons are tough, and not all that useful.

Click to expand...

The Turkish guest worker program was well planned in advance and Turkey is a relatively advanced nation that is capable of producing skilled labor for a modern economy. As you say in the case of France most of this immigration was of people who speak French coming from former French colonies which allowed for much better control over the situation and easier assimilation of these individuals.

This is very much a new issue for Europe. The continent has not yet had to deal with millions of unskilled, uninvited individuals from the third world on such a large scale. These individuals are simply coming whether Europe likes it or not. It is hard to control, it is chaotic. This kind of immigration is much more comparable to what the US has faced over the past several decades as our primary source of immigrants shifted from Europe to South America.

International10 said:

The Turkish guest worker program was well planned in advance and Turkey is a relatively advanced nation that is capable of producing skilled labor for a modern economy. As you say in the case of France most of this immigration was of people who speak French coming from former French colonies which allowed for much better control over the situation and easier assimilation of these individuals.

Click to expand...

Uh huh... So those decades of Indian and Pakistanis coming to Europe, notably the UK? National Front hasn't spent the past 20 years screaming about immigrants? France instituted a ban on headscarfs because too many French Jews wore yamulkes to school? Sweden's had immigrants coming since the 1940s.

C'mon, man. It's not a new problem. It's just getting a lot of attention now.

This is very much a new issue for Europe. The continent has not yet had to deal with millions of unskilled, uninvited individuals from the third world on such a large scale.

Click to expand...

Unless it has. Again, millions of relatively low-education Algerians have been in France for years; National Front UK got its start in the late 1960s. Palestinian refugees have lived in Europe for decades. Thousands of Iranians fled to Europe, looking for asylum, since the early 80s.

What is new is that there's a big surge of Syrian refugees... and it's a tiny percentage, compared to those in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. The perception is clearly out of whack with the reality.

As such, there is really no problem looking at political impacts going back decades, rather than weeks.

Visbek said:

Uh huh... So those decades of Indian and Pakistanis coming to Europe, notably the UK? National Front hasn't spent the past 20 years screaming about immigrants? France instituted a ban on headscarfs because too many French Jews wore yamulkes to school? Sweden's had immigrants coming since the 1940s.

C'mon, man. It's not a new problem. It's just getting a lot of attention now.



Unless it has. Again, millions of relatively low-education Algerians have been in France for years; National Front UK got its start in the late 1960s. Palestinian refugees have lived in Europe for decades. Thousands of Iranians fled to Europe, looking for asylum, since the early 80s.

What is new is that there's a big surge of Syrian refugees... and it's a tiny percentage, compared to those in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. The perception is clearly out of whack with the reality.

As such, there is really no problem looking at political impacts going back decades, rather than weeks.

Click to expand...

My comment was directed towards mainland Europe. I didn't touch on the UK because I don't think anyone outside of either country would argue there is much of a difference for the propensity of either country for intolerance of immigrants over the past several decades. Sure in contemporary London there isn't much of a problem but then again you don't hear people in New York clamoring against immigrants either.

Once again French colonials emigrating to France and a well planned and manged Turkish guest worker program are not he same as what we are seeing now. Neither is "thousands" of Iranian or Palestinian refugees in years past. We have graduated to mass migration "Millions". The kind of immigration that is going to seriously change a countries demographics in the coming decades like we have seen in the United States. There is a reason this has dominated European politics and news over the past year and its not because "There is nothing new about it"

International10 said:

How does it get off on the wrong foot. I begin by saying that we are "constantly judged by Europeans" even though we "consistently allow millions of migrants into our country".

Click to expand...

Well, you and I (respectively) must be hanging around different Europeans.

Chagos said:

Well, you and I (respectively) must be hanging around different Europeans.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on that. My statements are just from my own subjective viewpoint, but I'm curious what is your impression of the European view on American Politics surrounding immigration? And even further than that their view on the American situation in relation to their own political situation surrounding immigrants?

Chagos said:

Well, you and I (respectively) must be hanging around different Europeans.

Click to expand...

Nothing the average European likes better than a good old condescending punch at the United States. We just aren't nearly as clever as they are, and God knows we aren't nearly as sophisticated. Just read their newspapers.

International10 said:

Can you elaborate on that. My statements are just from my own subjective viewpoint, but I'm curious what is your impression of the European view on American Politics surrounding immigration? And even further than that their view on the American situation in relation to their own political situation surrounding immigrants?

Click to expand...

In my experience (anecdotal of course), the US has always been seen historically as an immigration country.

One that has handled that issue fairly well, pitfalls and shortcomings derived therefrom notwithstanding.

Most French that I know (not able to speak for all) readily agree that the US did and are doing one helluva better job at integrating immigrants than France is. And most Germans express equal envy. The picture isn't much different among Italians and Spaniards.

So I don't really know where you got the impression that Europeans deem the US to be nationalistic and ridiculously backwards in immigration policy.

Also most Europeans are aware of the fact that the US has no land link to the M.E. or Africa and Asia in general, yet very much one to Latin America. So comparisons to the European situation are perceived as somewhat futile.

Even where Spain traditionally does have its share of S. American immigrants and, not really adding much to any possible xenophobia, we get the robber teams from across the pond each year, coming on a skullduggering tourist spree.

The greater issue here is however holding two enclaves on the opposite (African) shore, both of which regularly engulfed in refugee streams that show the elaborate fencing systems to be nowhere near as formidable as they look.

Not to mention a regular drift of corpses onto the beaches here.

One need also remember that the second worst "Islamic" terrorist strike at any Western nation (by sheer casualties) occurred here, the perpetrators being mostly of N. African descent. I'd think that the country, apart from falling back on values of its own, didn't take American lynch parties of the long distant past as representing the US of today. Thus refraining from declaring the sizeable Moroccon community here as easy meat.

In short, the dire situation along the US's Southern borders is not seen as comparable but as something completely different even where the imposed strain is similar.

I actually find the premise of your OP, especially the last paragraph, a complete fail.

As far as E.Europe is concerned, I'll not comment on grounds of that being something enough for yet another thread. But before I forget the UK (where I've never heard anything of what you claim either), the criticism you feel directed at the US is probably aimed more at that particular target by larger parts of Europe right now.

With a total lack of justification I might add, if the critics cared to look beyond the current situation and (rather) back over decades.

Wiggen said:

Nothing the average European likes better than a good old condescending punch at the United States. We just aren't nearly as clever as they are, and God knows we aren't nearly as sophisticated. Just read their newspapers.

Click to expand...

If you think that reading anybody's newspapers does anything for your education level, I suggest you do something about that. It might help raise cleverness and level of sophistication :2razz:

And where, pray tell, do you get your experience on the average European from? Indeed from where your astounding "knowledge" of who that actually is?

Chagos said:

If you think that reading anybody's newspapers does anything for your education level, I suggest you do something about that. It might help raise cleverness and level of sophistication :2razz:

And where, pray tell, do you get your experience on the average European from? Indeed from where your astounding "knowledge" of who that actually is?

Click to expand...

Well, since you asked in the usual condescending manner of a European, I'll answer. I was born in the UK and spent a considerable part of my life there. Reading UK newspapers - especially the garbage that is contained in left wing rags like the Guardian - gives a person of relatively normal intelligence a pretty good idea of what passes for intellect in Europe.

I'd bet I know at least as much about Europe as you and your ilk proclaim to know about the United States.

Thanks for asking.

Wiggen said:

Well, since you asked in the usual condescending manner of a European, I'll answer. I was born in the UK and spent a considerable part of my life there. Reading UK newspapers - especially the garbage that is contained in left wing rags like the Guardian - gives a person of relatively normal intelligence a pretty good idea of what passes for intellect in Europe.

I'd bet I know at least as much about Europe as you and your ilk proclaim to know about the United States.

Thanks for asking.

Click to expand...

Well, thanks for sharing.

I reckon we'd probably both agree that solely having grown up and lived in the UK doesn't necessarily cut it when it comes to knowing Europe. Certainly not in the sense of gaining more encompassing knowledge and certainly not by studying the Guardian. For which, BTW, I thank you for making my point.

I'm sorry that (if) your perception of what Europeans in general think of the US had to be limited to such singular experiences.

I've lived both sides of the pond and in various states each side at that. Thus I can assure you, certainly from mine own observations, that there is as little a "typical" American as there is a typical European. Not even considering that American culture (not to mention language etc.) makes for more uniformity.

So relax, even if it means doing so at the instigation of someone of the condescending manner so typical of whoever.

You are right about the UK not being typical of the rest of Europe. My impression is that it is less critical of the US than most of the rest of Europe. Thanks for pointing that out.

Wiggen said:

You are right about the UK not being typical of the rest of Europe. My impression is that it is less critical of the US than most of the rest of Europe. Thanks for pointing that out.

Click to expand...

France isn't typical either. Nor Spain, Germany, Italy, Finland or whoever.

The dividing line actually runs more along political leaning, lefties being more prone to criticize (the US). A condition exacerbated when a conservative government is in the seat in the US (see Guardian).

Ideological blinkering at its best or, better said, worst.

For this to be a fair comparison you have to compare similar situations.

Yes the US is being flooded by illegal immigration from Mexico and further south, but it is not the same as it is in Europe at the moment. To make a true comparison you have to go back to the late 1800s and early 1900s in the US and compare that to Europe.

The reason is simple. Latinos in the US have been part of the population for over 100+ years, so their "integration" happened during the formation of the nation. Spanish is the second language of the US and is the first language in many areas where the latino population is in the majority. It is basically not "alien" and religiously they are pretty much the same.

However go back to the 1800s and 1900s the immigrants were from Europe, where language was an issue as well as religion. This is much more comparable to the current situation in Europe.

So what happened back then? Well the local Americans were highly skeptical, racist and many wanted to stop those "dirty Italians and Irish" from coming over here. The Irish and Italians (and other groups) were blamed for crime and disease. What did these groups do? They created defacto ghettos that we now know as Little Italy and so on, where their people felt safe and were not discriminated against. Much of the US today is still dominated by this, as most Irish descendants are still in the Boston/New York areas, and most Italians are in the New York/New Jersey areas.



The map is very telling. I remember reading on how shocking it was that Kennedy got elected... he was after all a Catholic, one of those immigrant types and this was in the 1960s!.

Even today, migrants to the US tend to stick together. I am not talking about Latinos (who also do it), but other nationalities... places where they can speak their own language and live pretty much as they did at home. Is that integration?

So the real difference between the US and Europe is... the US has had 100 or so years to integrate their Irish/Italian/German/European populations and despite this, these populations tend to stick to their historical routes in the US.. this includes the black communities.

Can we be critical of Europe who is in the middle of its "immigration wave".. that these immigrants dont integrate overnight, when their American counterparts took many decades to do so?

Btw.. pop quiz.. biggest nationality group (ancestry wise) in the US? The map should give it away, but lets see if people are awake.

PeteEU said:

For this to be a fair comparison you have to compare similar situations.

Yes the US is being flooded by illegal immigration from Mexico and further south, but it is not the same as it is in Europe at the moment. To make a true comparison you have to go back to the late 1800s and early 1900s in the US and compare that to Europe.

The reason is simple. Latinos in the US have been part of the population for over 100+ years, so their "integration" happened during the formation of the nation. Spanish is the second language of the US and is the first language in many areas where the latino population is in the majority. It is basically not "alien" and religiously they are pretty much the same.

However go back to the 1800s and 1900s the immigrants were from Europe, where language was an issue as well as religion. This is much more comparable to the current situation in Europe.

So what happened back then? Well the local Americans were highly skeptical, racist and many wanted to stop those "dirty Italians and Irish" from coming over here. The Irish and Italians (and other groups) were blamed for crime and disease. What did these groups do? They created defacto ghettos that we now know as Little Italy and so on, where their people felt safe and were not discriminated against. Much of the US today is still dominated by this, as most Irish descendants are still in the Boston/New York areas, and most Italians are in the New York/New Jersey areas.

The map is very telling. I remember reading on how shocking it was that Kennedy got elected... he was after all a Catholic, one of those immigrant types and this was in the 1960s!.

Even today, migrants to the US tend to stick together. I am not talking about Latinos (who also do it), but other nationalities... places where they can speak their own language and live pretty much as they did at home. Is that integration?

So the real difference between the US and Europe is... the US has had 100 or so years to integrate their Irish/Italian/German/European populations and despite this, these populations tend to stick to their historical routes in the US.. this includes the black communities.

Can we be critical of Europe who is in the middle of its "immigration wave".. that these immigrants dont integrate overnight, when their American counterparts took many decades to do so?

Btw.. pop quiz.. biggest nationality group (ancestry wise) in the US? The map should give it away, but lets see if people are awake.

Click to expand...

There were less than 1% Latinos living in the United States in 1900. And most of those were located in the extreme Southwest which at that time was very very very rural. So I think its a farce to say Latinos integrated into American culture 100 years ago.

The main influx of Latinos began in 1950 (there were about 3 million Latinos in the US that year) Now in the 2010 census there are around 50 million latinos in the U.S. (throw in the population of about 10 million illegal immigrants and that makes a Latino population of well over 60 million).

That is an increase of 57 million in just 66 years.

International10 said:

As for specific instances of violence against immigrants recently: in Sweden we saw 100 or more men gather and run around assaulting anyone they perceived as a foreigner; In Germany a hand grenade (that luckily did not explode) was hurled at refugees; migrants were banned from a swimming pool in Germany...etc.

Click to expand...

hmm i notice you're concerned abt violence. Are you concerned about rape too?

PeteEU said:

Can we be critical of Europe who is in the middle of its "immigration wave"..

Click to expand...

yeah i think you mean illegal invasion wave