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The End of European civilisation [W:111]

Sweden said:
Steyn has it right.
It's Still the Demography, Stupid :: SteynOnline.

Rather sad for those of us living in Europe. As the man says the Muslim takeover of much of Europe is not a 'prediction' it is an on going event.
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Sure there are no go areas and Arab Quarters in many more cities than in the past and they will grow. But there is the upside of fine new restaurants. ;)
 
PeteEU said:
Debunked long ago.
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Meanwhile.......... Muslims march through Copenhagen burning police cars.

Danish Muslim Party...........claiming that Denmark will be a Muslim nation.

Danish Gov't setting up sex-ed classes for immigrants to combat the immigrant rape problem.......................lol

Four in ten Danish Muslims want sharia law?

No problem..............right?
 
Muslims took over Europe more than once before and contributed to our civilization.
 
Heinrich said:
Muslims took over Europe more than once before and contributed to our civilization.
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Wasn't that like in the Middle Ages, where we left from and they're still at? And speak for yourself in Spain, muslims never took over Belgium and thank the FSM for that.
 
Natan said:
Wasn't that like in the Middle Ages, where we left from and they're still at? And speak for yourself in Spain, muslims never took over Belgium and thank the FSM for that.
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Belgium has contributed much to Europe's civilized achievements, especially in the Belgian Congo.
 
Heinrich said:
Muslims took over Europe more than once before and contributed to our civilization.
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No, they took over part of Spain, not Europe, a long time ago. Now there is no sign that Muslims are contributing to our - or anyone else's - civilisation.
 
Europe has always had fluctuating demographics, but the people who hold the power have never changed. So I don't know what the article is griping about. Europe could become 50% Middle Eastern tomorrow and the same wealthy families would still run the show.

Some Arabs and Mid-easterners may feel culturally superior but they still value our banking system. :shrug:

If tomorrow someone posted an article saying that the Rothschilds and their EU affiliates had all their accounts usurped by a foreign group then I would totally buy it.
 
Sweden said:
No, they took over part of Spain, not Europe, a long time ago. Now there is no sign that Muslims are contributing to our - or anyone else's - civilisation.
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You are misinformed. Muslims did not only rule over almost the entire Iberian Peninsula during the Umayyad conquest but had advanced beyond the Pyrenees into the territory of the Franks. They were in Iberia for over 800 years and by becoming Catholics they could remain after the expulsion of Jews and Muslims in 1614. A stroll down the streets of my town will give the appearance of average people who could easily be from Morocco or Algeria. Anyone who speaks everyday Spanish will be using much of their vocabulary that comes directly from Arabic. Needless to say, Spain became very Catholic and brought Catholicism to the New World after the Battle of Granada in 1492 when the Muslims were finally defeated in the Reconquista. At the other end of the continent, Muslims entered Eastern Europe in parts of modern Russia even earlier than in Spain and Southeastern Europe in what is now Bulgaria in the 13th century. The Muslim Ottoman Empire expanded into Europe taking huge portions of the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. They held European territory for centuries and are well-represented to this day in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro, and Bosnia. Several European regions of the Russian Federation such as the Northern Caucasus, Tatarstan, Bashkortostan and the Astrakhan Oblast as well as Crimea in Ukraine have strong Muslims populations.

Cafe-Mozart_zps8fahekcc.jpg

Ever enjoy a Kaffee mit Kuchen in Wien? Then thank the Ottomans Muslims who brought the drink there during the siege in 1529.
 
Heinrich said:
The Muslim Ottoman Empire expanded into Europe taking huge portions of the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. They held European territory for centuries and are well-represented to this day in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro, and Bosnia.
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That last sentence,

Who is "well-represented" in Albania and Dardania (see signature) to this day? What do you mean by that?
 
DDD said:
That last sentence,

Who is "well-represented" in Albania and Dardania (see signature) to this day? What do you mean by that?
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Sorry to inform you, DDD, but Dardania ceased to exist centuries before the Ottoman Muslims arrived in the 14th and 15th centuries, being subsumed into Macedonia (30% Muslims) and Montenegro (20% Muslims). In the same Balkan region of Albania the population of Muslims is about 60%. This a a good representation of the population.
 
Sweden said:
By whom pray? And to who's satisfaction?
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By logic first of all. For Europe to become Muslim by 2055 would require insane birth rates... it is simply not possible mathematically.

For any of these doomsday right wing predictions, like this hack in the OP.. to become true... non-Muslims would have to stop having kids period and the Muslim population would have to have 5+ kids every generation and that aint happening.

There is empirical evidence from many countries that 2nd and onwards generational female Muslim immigrants have their birthrates collapse. This means for you to understand... 1st generation comes to Denmark.. she has say 4 kids with 2 daughters. These daughters grow up in Denmark and have 1 to 2 kids.. and they in turn have less..

All these demographic doomsday predictions all rely on one "fact".. that all Muslim women, regardless of generation will have 4+ kids.. and that the "local white Christians" will have lower and lower birthrates. Both are unrealistic.

Funny how he quotes places like Afghanistan and Yemen but forget to mention that fertility rates in places like Turkey, Morocco, Algeria and many other Muslim countries, including Iran btw.. are at the same as Western Europe or in some cases actually lower.

Europe has been around 2000 years and now because of Muslims, then suddenly it will disappear? Seriously?
 
RetiredUSN said:
Meanwhile.......... Muslims march through Copenhagen burning police cars.
Click to expand...

Oh this happened when?

Danish Muslim Party...........claiming that Denmark will be a Muslim nation.
Click to expand...

No such party.. in fact "Muslim" partiticpation in politics is highly limited.

Danish Gov't setting up sex-ed classes for immigrants to combat the immigrant rape problem.......................lol
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There is sex-ed classes for all citizens... your point? And what rape problem?

Four in ten Danish Muslims want sharia law?
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Miss-leading bull**** claim. Ever ask what parts of Sharia law they want? Of course not!
 
The rapid growth of Muslim populations in Europe is not only due to much higher birthrates - which show no sign of abating- compared to the native population. In the UK and eldewhere young Muslim men and women, particularly those of Pakistani origin, are encouraged to marry relatives in Pakistan who bring with them siblings (whether real or pretended) and other family members. In Sweden the growth of Muslim population was already explosive even before the current mass influx of migrants.
 
Over the last century or two Europe and Europe abroad - US, Canada, Australia etc. - has contributed almost every advance in science and technology, from tremendous progress in medicine to the internet. During that period there has been only one distinctive invention from the Muslim world: the suicide vest. Contemplate the Arab states: backward, cruel and despotic.
 
Heinrich said:
Sorry to inform you, DDD, but Dardania ceased to exist centuries before the Ottoman Muslims...
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I understand that invaders before and after the Ottoman's did named our Dardania with names of their choosing, but Dardania always existed and is still alive and well to this day.

Heinrich said:
... Ottoman Muslims arrived in the 14th and 15th centuries, being subsumed into Macedonia (30% Muslims) and Montenegro (20% Muslims).
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Clarification,

Who was subsumed into FYROM and Montenegro: Muslims, Dardanian Albanians, or Turks?

Heinrich said:
In the same Balkan region of Albania the population of Muslims is about 60%. This a a good representation of the population.
Click to expand...

Okay,

So the religion is that it was "well-represented" in these areas, not the Ottoman's. See there is confusion between Muslims, Ottoman's, and Albanians in the previous comment:

The Muslim Ottoman Empire expanded into Europe taking huge portions of the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. They held European territory for centuries and are well-represented to this day in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro, and Bosnia.
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It sounds as if the Ottoman's are "well-represented" in Albania, Dardania, FYROM, etc. So now that we have clarified that a religion of Islam is meant, then I should only add that Albania was atheist for a half a century and that Albanians are in general shallow religious.
 
PeteEU said:
By logic first of all. For Europe to become Muslim by 2055 would require insane birth rates... it is simply not possible mathematically.

For any of these doomsday right wing predictions, like this hack in the OP.. to become true... non-Muslims would have to stop having kids period and the Muslim population would have to have 5+ kids every generation and that aint happening.

There is empirical evidence from many countries that 2nd and onwards generational female Muslim immigrants have their birthrates collapse. This means for you to understand... 1st generation comes to Denmark.. she has say 4 kids with 2 daughters. These daughters grow up in Denmark and have 1 to 2 kids.. and they in turn have less..

All these demographic doomsday predictions all rely on one "fact".. that all Muslim women, regardless of generation will have 4+ kids.. and that the "local white Christians" will have lower and lower birthrates. Both are unrealistic.

Funny how he quotes places like Afghanistan and Yemen but forget to mention that fertility rates in places like Turkey, Morocco, Algeria and many other Muslim countries, including Iran btw.. are at the same as Western Europe or in some cases actually lower.

Europe has been around 2000 years and now because of Muslims, then suddenly it will disappear? Seriously?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree that such "predictions" are mostly doomsaying apocalypticism.

However, I'm still worried about social cohesion and civil peace. You don't need a majority of Muslim immigrants to be violent for that to happen. How many people do you need to wage civil unrest -- on both sides? Could 5000 or 10,000 on both sides willing to take up arms be enough to, say, set Paris on fire?

I'd say rape/sexual violence is a huge problem, too. When you cramp groups of people who are mostly male (ca. 70%, IIRC) and young (most between age 15-40) into cramped camps, without the opportunity to work, without much else to do to pass the time, and lots of factors causing frustration -- no matter the culture or origin of that group, there would always be problems. (I'm even sure a similar thing would happen if you exposed native Germans of a similar demographic to these conditions.)

Now add to that their origins in cultures that rely more heavily on traditional gender roles, and where suppression of sexual impulses is extreme and enforced via social control, and of course the flipside will be an explosion of these suppressed impulses and lack of restraint.

As far as I can see, the main problem is not "Islam" and its demands per se, but the extreme hypocrisy that arises in cultures where there are extremely strict behavioral codes enforced via social control. You see a different, albeit not entirely different phenomenon among Catholic priests who molest kids, or Bible Belt conservatives who are all the more unhinged when nobody's looking. A society that expects from young males to not even talk to women or look them in the eyes, where even shaking hands with a woman is considered "sexual", where young males are expected to fully suppress their natural impulses, is a sure recipe for hypocrisy and disaster.

But you're right when you say that the doomsayers often underestimate the power of our societies to assimilate even Muslim immigrants, IMO. While those who don't may pose huge problems allright, a large number of them is successfully seduced and assimilated thanks to the benefits and attractiveness of open, liberal Western culture.
 
Sweden said:
The rapid growth of Muslim populations in Europe is not only due to much higher birthrates - which show no sign of abating- compared to the native population. In the UK and eldewhere young Muslim men and women, particularly those of Pakistani origin, are encouraged to marry relatives in Pakistan who bring with them siblings (whether real or pretended) and other family members. In Sweden the growth of Muslim population was already explosive even before the current mass influx of migrants.
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What is the forecast for the next decades?
 
German guy said:
Yeah, I agree that such "predictions" are mostly doomsaying apocalypticism.

However, I'm still worried about social cohesion and civil peace. You don't need a majority of Muslim immigrants to be violent for that to happen. How many people do you need to wage civil unrest -- on both sides? Could 5000 or 10,000 on both sides willing to take up arms be enough to, say, set Paris on fire?

I'd say rape/sexual violence is a huge problem, too. When you cramp groups of people who are mostly male (ca. 70%, IIRC) and young (most between age 15-40) into cramped camps, without the opportunity to work, without much else to do to pass the time, and lots of factors causing frustration -- no matter the culture or origin of that group, there would always be problems. (I'm even sure a similar thing would happen if you exposed native Germans of a similar demographic to these conditions.)

Now add to that their origins in cultures that rely more heavily on traditional gender roles, and where suppression of sexual impulses is extreme and enforced via social control, and of course the flipside will be an explosion of these suppressed impulses and lack of restraint.

As far as I can see, the main problem is not "Islam" and its demands per se, but the extreme hypocrisy that arises in cultures where there are extremely strict behavioral codes enforced via social control. You see a different, albeit not entirely different phenomenon among Catholic priests who molest kids, or Bible Belt conservatives who are all the more unhinged when nobody's looking. A society that expects from young males to not even talk to women or look them in the eyes, where even shaking hands with a woman is considered "sexual", where young males are expected to fully suppress their natural impulses, is a sure recipe for hypocrisy and disaster.

But you're right when you say that the doomsayers often underestimate the power of our societies to assimilate even Muslim immigrants, IMO. While those who don't may pose huge problems allright, a large number of them is successfully seduced and assimilated thanks to the benefits and attractiveness of open, liberal Western culture.
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To add more to it,

In order to avoid the release of sexual tension their social codes instruct their women to close their feminine facets almost entirely with hijabs. Once they see our women dressing up freely and exposing their beauties its "sluts for the taking" in their minds.
 
Heinrich said:
You are misinformed. Muslims did not only rule over almost the entire Iberian Peninsula during the Umayyad conquest but had advanced beyond the Pyrenees into the territory of the Franks. They were in Iberia for over 800 years and by becoming Catholics they could remain after the expulsion of Jews and Muslims in 1614. A stroll down the streets of my town will give the appearance of average people who could easily be from Morocco or Algeria. Anyone who speaks everyday Spanish will be using much of their vocabulary that comes directly from Arabic. Needless to say, Spain became very Catholic and brought Catholicism to the New World after the Battle of Granada in 1492 when the Muslims were finally defeated in the Reconquista. At the other end of the continent, Muslims entered Eastern Europe in parts of modern Russia even earlier than in Spain and Southeastern Europe in what is now Bulgaria in the 13th century. The Muslim Ottoman Empire expanded into Europe taking huge portions of the Byzantine Empire in the 14th and 15th centuries. They held European territory for centuries and are well-represented to this day in Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro, and Bosnia. Several European regions of the Russian Federation such as the Northern Caucasus, Tatarstan, Bashkortostan and the Astrakhan Oblast as well as Crimea in Ukraine have strong Muslims populations.

Cafe-Mozart_zps8fahekcc.jpg

Ever enjoy a Kaffee mit Kuchen in Wien? Then thank the Ottomans Muslims who brought the drink there during the siege in 1529.
Click to expand...

My concerns with Muslims in Europe today are not about the food, clothes or architecture they bring. They can bring as much of that as they like.

What I'm worried about are their attitudes and cultural values, that pose a potential threat to liberal values generations of Europeans have bitterly fought for; such as regarding equality of men and women, monopoly of power for the state, public rather than private law, religion being a private and not public matter, respect for homosexuals.

None of that played a role 700+ years ago.

That millions of Muslim migrants from cultures who hold very different attitudes on these matters than (at least liberal) Europeans do, may at least potentially pose a huge challenge to these liberal achievements, is a claim that cannot be dismissed off-hand. If it's supposedly indeed not a serious problem, I'd rather read good arguments for why it isn't.
 
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