• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The End of European civilisation [W:111]

PeteEU said:
Debunked long ago.
Click to expand...
Steyn predicted current trends and events a decade ago. Most of life is showing up - demography is destiny.
 
Natan said:
leftist Gutmensch propaganda that I've seen before.
Click to expand...

I really wonder when "Gutmensch" became a swearword. Is that the end of beeing nice to each other and the beginning of even more cruel and egoistic world than it is already? Leaving all politenes and beeing honst that "beeing good (nice)" is despicable?

I´m quite proud when someone in a discussion calles me "Gutmensch" because that is not the world I wann live in.
 
PeteEU said:
No.. who what? Pam Geller is a neo nazi scum and gets nothing right.
Click to expand...

No I'm sorry you're thinking of 99% of the Muslim immigrants you support bringing to the west. Every pro-Muslim refugee is a killer of Jews.
 
starcitizen said:
No I'm sorry you're thinking of 99% of the Muslim immigrants you support bringing to the west. Every pro-Muslim refugee is a killer of Jews.
Click to expand...

It´s so relaxing to have a simple world view. No brain exploding from too much thinking, no doubts if you are right and a lot of of other "straight" people behind if someone comes with such nasty things as complexity and other stressful useless distractions...
 
german hick said:
It´s so relaxing to have a simple world view. No brain exploding from too much thinking, no doubts if you are right and a lot of of other "straight" people behind if someone comes with such nasty things as complexity and other stressful useless distractions...
Click to expand...

I may not be the brightest bulb but at least I'm not a theocratic, anti-Semitic, homophobic pig:


On homosexuality the overwhelming majority of Muslims view homosexuality as a sin:

Muslim Views on Morality | Pew Research Center

On Anti-Semitism the overwhelming majority of Muslims have a negative view of Jews:

Antisemitism | Pew Research Center

On theocracy the overwhelming majority of Muslims surveyed want Sharia to be the official law of the land:

Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center

On Anti-Semitism:


The only representative comparative survey of different European countries that distinguishes between Muslims and non-Muslims was conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project in April 2006.5 Unfortunately, only a single ques- tion was used to measure antisemitic attitudes.6 The study showed that Muslims in France, Germany, and Spain were twice as likely as non-Muslims to harbor negative views of Jews. The factor was almost seven for Great Britain. The dif- ference is even greater concerning “very unfavorable” views of Jews. In 2006, Muslims were three to ten times more likely to harbor “very unfavorable” views of Jews than did non-Muslims in France, Germany, and Great Britain. The factor was slightly lower in Spain, where negative views of Jews were by far the highest among both Muslims (60 percent) and the general population (39 percent). Other surveys confirm particularly high levels of antisemitic attitudes in Spain in the general population.7

http://isgap.org/wp-content/uploads...emitic_Attitudes_among_Muslims_in_Europe1.pdf

On homophobia:

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance towards homosexual acts compared to their counterparts in France and Germany, according to a survey published today. The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. By comparison, 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable. A question on pornography also elicited different reactions, with French and German Muslims more likely than British Muslims to believe that watching or reading pornography was morally acceptable.


Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll | UK news | The Guardian

On theocracy:

According to the study (German and English), which was funded by the German government, two thirds (65%) of the Muslims interviewed say Islamic Sharia law is more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live.

Three quarters (75%) of the respondents hold the opinion that there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran, which should apply to all Muslims, and nearly 60% of Muslims believe their community should return to "Islamic roots."

The survey shows that 44% of the Moroccans and Turks interviewed agree with all three of the above statements, which makes them "consistent fundamentalists," and fundamentalist attitudes are just as widespread among younger Muslims as they are among older Muslims.

According to the study, Islamic fundamentalism is most pronounced in Austria, where 73% of Muslims interviewed say Sharia law is more important than the secular laws of the state; 79% say there is only one correct interpretation of the Koran that should apply to all, and 65% believe Muslims should return to their Islamic roots. In Austria, 55% of the Muslims surveyed say they agree with all three of the above statements.

Europe: Islamic Fundamentalism is Widespread
 
Okay. I´m German so I have to be very careful not beeing marked as Antisemit. ;o) Do you also have sources how the jews see the muslims? May it be the two sides are quite equal in their hatred?

edit: there are a lot of not extreme or even nearly atheistic muslems here in Germany. I know quite a lot of them. Do you know any muslims?
I´m baptisted catholic - but believe me I wount do everything as it is written in the bible...
 
Last edited:
again this black and white thinking without accepting there could be any grey on both sides of the discussion...

Sometimes I believe folks don´t inform themselves and acquire an opinion, but do it the other way round. Have an opinion that suits to political/social backround and than searching for evidence in the Internet to prove that opinion is the right one and fact.

Problem: on the Internet you find evidence for everything you want
 
starcitizen said:
No I'm sorry you're thinking of 99% of the Muslim immigrants you support bringing to the west. Every pro-Muslim refugee is a killer of Jews.
Click to expand...

So I am suicidal?

You do understand that the biggest threat against the Jews historically is the Christian right? The ones that has defended Jews the most.. the Muslims.. go figure eh?
 
I found interesting figures on attitudes and opinions by Muslims in Germany (those who were already here) in Bertelsmann Religionsmonitor, an annual study based on polls on all matters concerning religion in Germany, conducted by Bertelsmann Foundation.

I don't have it at hand right now, but maybe someone can dig them up, and there are a few things I remember:

IIRC, Muslims in Germany have at least partially pretty much adopted to German attitudes. IIRC, only around 60% considered homosexuality sinful, which is only slightly more than among the group of observed Catholics (48% of which consider homosexuality sinful). Likewise, it was pretty much visible that roughly half of them hold rather modern attitudes on many fields, that don't differ much from the observed Germans.

My personal experience with Muslims is mixed: I know examples for both, very well integrated, mostly naturalized people with roots in Muslim countries, which don't differ in any significant way from Germans of the same age group. And examples for less assimilated Muslims in poor jobs with weird attitudes.

A friend of mine, for example, is a woman with Turkish parents, who broke with her family as a teenager, started living the life of "a German girl", married a native German, is atheist and doesn't hold any political or religious views that differ from those of fellow Germans. In my environment, I know of more such examples.

But I have also made the experience -- exclusively with males with Muslim background -- of obnoxious behavior when I was in female company, macho attitudes and the like. The latter seems to be limited to the migrants with no or poor jobs, and few everyday contact with natives. Those who find a good job -- and females -- are apparently much more likely to adopt.

That's why I'd say most of that talk about "Muslims taking over" is apocalypticist doomsaying. It's not just Muslims changing our society, but our society changing the Muslim migrants, too. People shouldn't underestimate the power and attractiveness of an open, wealthy society and the cultural values of liberalism, and the seducing power those have on Muslim migrants.

That said, I'm pretty sure there is a certain hard core of Muslim migrants that are hard or impossible to integrate. And they pose a considerable problem. This must be addressed and not silenced.


My personal impression is that we're on the good way of having an open debate about that, at least, here in Germany. One without false taboos. In the past, it was way too often just the immovable positions of xenophobes who don't want foreign people at all, who brush all Muslim migrants with the same brush on one side, and regeressive leftists on the other who labelled everybody a "Nazi" who pointed to problems. Now these camps are breaking up, it seems. We allow for more openness in the debate, less black and white, but more grey.

This is encouraging, and should be the first step towards finding constructive solutions.
 
PeteEU said:
So I am suicidal?

You do understand that the biggest threat against the Jews historically is the Christian right? The ones that has defended Jews the most.. the Muslims.. go figure eh?
Click to expand...

Muslim anti-Semitism is a huge problem. There is no use in denying that. Anti-Jewish sentiments are *much* more widespread among people from Muslim countries than among native Europeans.
 
German guy said:
Muslim anti-Semitism is a huge problem. There is no use in denying that. Anti-Jewish sentiments are *much* more widespread among people from Muslim countries than among native Europeans.
Click to expand...
`

Of course any anti-religion is a problem. Hating Muslims for being Muslims is a major problem. However the so called anti-Semitism is more than often due to the actions of the state of Israel and not Jews. The irony is, that most Muslims have far more in-common with Muslims than Christians.. both historically and genetically. Hell there is not much different between native Jews of Palestine and the Muslim population. The whole animosity between the 2 faiths is because of the creation of Israel.. how it was created and all the consequences since then. Who defended the Jews against Christian persecution and genocide? Oh the Muslims historically.

Hitler and the anti-Semitism of the pre WW2 was clearly mostly baseless hatred. Jews as a religion, was blamed for things they often had zero control over. Baby deaths, to the black plague to financial difficulties and so on. They were the victims of classic blame game. It happens to almost all minorities.

However post 1948 there is far more "meat on the bones" when being critical of what the State of Israel has done. But those that are critical of Israel and its actions and policies are also called anti-Semtic (just wait in this thread.. happens every time), because the supporters of the policies of Israel know that accusing someone of being a Jew hater is the easiest way to deflate or derail a debate. This will happen in this thread... hell it has already happened.

And lets be real here.. there is plenty of so called anti-Semitism in the non Muslim population and it is also for the most part linked to the actions and policies the State of Israel against its muslim population. I bet you can statistically see a rise in "anti-Semitic" attacks just after Israel has done something bad... just as you can see attacks against Muslim rise, just after a massive terror attack.

We all know how to stop this crap.. make peace in Palestine. But that aint gonna happen any time soon with the fools in power on both sides... they live off conflict.
 
PeteEU said:
`

Of course any anti-religion is a problem. Hating Muslims for being Muslims is a major problem. However the so called anti-Semitism is more than often due to the actions of the state of Israel and not Jews. The irony is, that most Muslims have far more in-common with Muslims than Christians.. both historically and genetically. Hell there is not much different between native Jews of Palestine and the Muslim population. The whole animosity between the 2 faiths is because of the creation of Israel.. how it was created and all the consequences since then. Who defended the Jews against Christian persecution and genocide? Oh the Muslims historically.

Hitler and the anti-Semitism of the pre WW2 was clearly mostly baseless hatred. Jews as a religion, was blamed for things they often had zero control over. Baby deaths, to the black plague to financial difficulties and so on. They were the victims of classic blame game. It happens to almost all minorities.

However post 1948 there is far more "meat on the bones" when being critical of what the State of Israel has done. But those that are critical of Israel and its actions and policies are also called anti-Semtic (just wait in this thread.. happens every time), because the supporters of the policies of Israel know that accusing someone of being a Jew hater is the easiest way to deflate or derail a debate. This will happen in this thread... hell it has already happened.

And lets be real here.. there is plenty of so called anti-Semitism in the non Muslim population and it is also for the most part linked to the actions and policies the State of Israel against its muslim population. I bet you can statistically see a rise in "anti-Semitic" attacks just after Israel has done something bad... just as you can see attacks against Muslim rise, just after a massive terror attack.

We all know how to stop this crap.. make peace in Palestine. But that aint gonna happen any time soon with the fools in power on both sides... they live off conflict.
Click to expand...

You could be right, but based on my experience, I disagree.

The Muslim hate on Jews is irrational and endemic. From childhood on, many Muslims are indoctrinate to hate Jews with a passion that has no comparison whatsoever in the Western World. Not even European leftists hate neo-Nazis as much as Muslims hate Jews.

Many Muslims I talked with voiced opinions on Israel and Jews in general, even Goebbels himself would have been ashamed of.

I don't have the slightest doubt that Israel is just an excuse. The hate would no be gone if there was a successful two-state solution. Muslims don't want peace, they want Jews to be eradicated from this planet, and they won't stop hating until the last Jew has stopped breathing. That's how strong their hate is.

Have you ever met any Muslim who'd support a two-state solution? I haven't. For all I've talked to, the only possibly satisfactory solution would be a dissolution of Israel. They want Israel gone from the map, either by peaceful means, or by force.

It's unfortunately true that most Muslims hate Israel more than they love their children.
 
German guy said:
You could be right, but based on my experience, I disagree.

The Muslim hate on Jews is irrational and endemic. From childhood on, many Muslims are indoctrinate to hate Jews with a passion that has no comparison whatsoever in the Western World. Not even European leftists hate neo-Nazis as much as Muslims hate Jews.
Click to expand...

Yes but why were they taught so? Because of the formation of Israel and especially the aftermath.

Many Muslims I talked with voiced opinions on Israel and Jews in general, even Goebbels himself would have been ashamed of.
Click to expand...

Again.. Israel is the key.. and its policies towards fellow Muslims.

I don't have the slightest doubt that Israel is just an excuse.
Click to expand...

No it is not an excuse.. it is the reason.

The hate would no be gone if there was a successful two-state solution. Muslims don't want peace, they want Jews to be eradicated from this planet, and they won't stop hating until the last Jew has stopped breathing. That's how strong their hate is.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are wrong. Historically Muslims and Jews lived side by side and fought against Christians who wanted to kill them. The reason that there is the animosity today, is pure and simple, the State of Israel and how that went down.

Think about it.. you and your family/friends/countrymen have lived in the area for hundreds of years.. and out of the blue, a bunch of foreigners come a say that you have to give up your land for another bunch of foreigners.. dont you think that would cause problems?
Have you ever met any Muslim who'd support a two-state solution? I haven't. For all I've talked to, the only possibly satisfactory solution would be a dissolution of Israel. They want Israel gone from the map, either by peaceful means, or by force.

It's unfortunately true that most Muslims hate Israel more than they love their children.
 
PeteEU said:
Yes but why were they taught so? Because of the formation of Israel and especially the aftermath.



Again.. Israel is the key.. and its policies towards fellow Muslims.



No it is not an excuse.. it is the reason.



Sorry but you are wrong. Historically Muslims and Jews lived side by side and fought against Christians who wanted to kill them. The reason that there is the animosity today, is pure and simple, the State of Israel and how that went down.

Think about it.. you and your family/friends/countrymen have lived in the area for hundreds of years.. and out of the blue, a bunch of foreigners come a say that you have to give up your land for another bunch of foreigners.. dont you think that would cause problems?
Have you ever met any Muslim who'd support a two-state solution? I haven't. For all I've talked to, the only possibly satisfactory solution would be a dissolution of Israel. They want Israel gone from the map, either by peaceful means, or by force.

It's unfortunately true that most Muslims hate Israel more than they love their children.
Click to expand...

I don't want to debate Israel here now. But fact is, Israel won't go away and the best Muslims can hope for, is a two-state solution. But they don't want that, they don't want peace, which is why such a solution won't happen.

IMO, 90% of the blame for the conflict is on the Muslim side. They are unwilling to overcome their irrational hate of Jews. That's 90% of the problem.
 
Sweden said:
Steyn has it right.
It's Still the Demography, Stupid :: SteynOnline.

Rather sad for those of us living in Europe. As the man says the Muslim takeover of much of Europe is not a 'prediction' it is an on going event.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately; Sweden will not get much sympathy from the folks here in North America_

The politically correct Americans are in blind denial of your predicament; and their own as well_

In fact, you even mentioning such a thing will absolutely get you labeled a "racist xenophobe"!

Progressives are desperately trying to flood our nation with what they believe will be millions of new third world voters_

Our people had better open their eyes and very soon because Western Civilization is about to reach its event horizon_
 
PeteEU said:
`

Of course any anti-religion is a problem. Hating Muslims for being Muslims is a major problem. However the so called anti-Semitism is more than often due to the actions of the state of Israel and not Jews.
Click to expand...


Just to put this in proper context, you have also referred to 12 year olds as "so-called children" in order to justify their being gang raped by Muslim men.
 
German guy said:
I don't want to debate Israel here now. But fact is, Israel won't go away and the best Muslims can hope for, is a two-state solution. But they don't want that, they don't want peace, which is why such a solution won't happen.

IMO, 90% of the blame for the conflict is on the Muslim side. They are unwilling to overcome their irrational hate of Jews. That's 90% of the problem.
Click to expand...

This book is for you.

51d3ZCYbfhL._SX319_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
Gardener said:
This book is for you.

View attachment 67196046
Click to expand...

Thanks! Küntzel certainly is an interesting person with an interesting vita. Not the straight-Muslim eater or anything like that, which makes it easier not dismiss him easily.

Other books I read recently include two works by Hamed Abdel-Samad. Nothing that qualifies as scientific, but interesting insights into Arab/Eqyptian culture nevertheless, worst you can say about it is that it's too anecdotical.

Same can be said about my personal experience. And my experience with both Israelis and Arab Muslims pretty much made it clear to me on which side most of the blame lies. Always open for correcting my view, of course, but to do so, I require more than leftist anti-Israeli drivel these days.
 
PeteEU said:
Yes but why were they taught so? Because of the formation of Israel and especially the aftermath.
Click to expand...

So you're blaming Muslim hate of Jews on Jews that is sick and anti-Semitic. Muslims hate Jews because their religion tells them that they are descended from apes and pigs and that they should be exterminated.
 
starcitizen said:
So you're blaming Muslim hate of Jews on Jews that is sick and anti-Semitic. Muslims hate Jews because their religion tells them that they are descended from apes and pigs and that they should be exterminated.
Click to expand...


Haven't you heard? In Pete's upside down world those 6 or 8 million Jews are bullying the 1.4 billion Muslims!

Just like the skinny little brainiac kid in class bullies the gang of remedials that have been held back a couple of years and weigh twice as much as he does as they shake him down for lunch money.
 
PeteEU said:
So I am suicidal?

You do understand that the biggest threat against the Jews historically is the Christian right? The ones that has defended Jews the most.. the Muslims.. go figure eh?
Click to expand...


This is an overt lie Muslims have historically persecuted Jews from Mohammad and the genocide of the Banu tribes into the modern era with Hitlers Mufti of Jerusalem and the only reason why the Jews weren't completely exterminated from the ME is because the British Christians were there to stop them.

Today almost 100% of Muslims hate Jews, anyone who supports the mass Muslim invasion of Europe hates Jews and wishes violence upon them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom