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The End of European civilisation [W:111]

DDD said:
To add more to it,

In order to avoid the release of sexual tension their social codes instruct their women to close their feminine facets almost entirely with hijabs. Once they see our women dressing up freely and exposing their beauties its "sluts for the taking" in their minds.
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Agreed. When you're told all your life that people who have sex outside of marriage are "evil", and women who do so are honorless "sluts" who bring shame to the family -- then there's a lot of projection going on from the males. They see a freely dressed woman, are aroused, project their own lust on her, "she wants it, too".

And in the end, it's the victim to blame for the rape. She asked for it, because she wore that mini skirt.
 
PeteEU said:
By logic first of all. For Europe to become Muslim by 2055 would require insane birth rates... it is simply not possible mathematically.
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It would take just 5-6 years or so for a constant immigration rate of 1.5 million a year to ensure Germany ends up with a muslim majority. I did the math for a 2.5 million figure back when it wasn't known yet how high the final immigration level for 2015 would be, for the 1.5 million figure it's around 3 years. For all of Europe, do the math yourself, I'd guess multiply by 5 so 25-30 years which makes 2055 a reasonable guess.

Say hello to 1984: Demographic destruction of Germany soon past point of no return
 
German guy said:
Agreed.

When you're told all your life that people who have sex outside of marriage are "evil", and women who do so are honorless "sluts" who bring shame to the family -- then there's a lot of projection going on from the males. They see a freely dressed woman, are aroused, project their own lust on her, "she wants it, too".

And in the end, it's the victim to blame for the rape. She asked for it, because she wore that mini skirt.
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Further they are indoctrinated from the Quran to do so since there are verses to hide feminine facets else the women will be insulted. So now they have this "god" concept on their side too. What is this human code in their host country that they should follow when they have an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent entity supporting them in harassing freely dressing women?

Both a rapist and divinely arrogant they are.
 
Natan said:
It would take just 5-6 years or so for a constant immigration rate of 1.5 million a year to ensure Germany ends up with a muslim majority. I did the math for a 2.5 million figure back when it wasn't known yet how high the final immigration level for 2015 would be, for the 1.5 million figure it's around 3 years. For all of Europe, do the math yourself, I'd guess multiply by 5 so 25-30 years which makes 2055 a reasonable guess.

Say hello to 1984: Demographic destruction of Germany soon past point of no return
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There won't be an influx of 1.5 mio to Germany for the next 5-6 years. I'm pretty sure a revision of the German policies is only weeks ahead, with or without Merkel.

If I'm wrong after all, I owe you a drink and I'm doing my best to migrate to Canada to escape this ****hole in the making. ;)
 
DDD said:
Further they are indoctrinated from the Quran to do so since there are verses to hide feminine facets else the women will be insulted. So now they have this "god" concept on their side too. What is this human code in their host country that they should follow when they have an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent entity supporting them in harassing freely dressing women?

Both a rapist and divinely arrogant they are.
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My guess is the situation is more complicated. Regardless of the fact there are pretty extreme ways to read and interpret Quran, most mainstream clerics certainly don't condone rape (and even if that's just because it would damage the honor of the father, brother or husband of the victim) and demand very strict sexual control from males, too. (Let's not get into the ISIS nuts here.)

So my guess is that the lack of restraint is most prevalent among those males who either have the least capacity to suppress their impulses despite the religious and social demands, or those who don't eat the god-stuff as hot as the clerics are cooking it, anyway. And of the latter, there are plenty, even among Muslims.
 
German guy said:
Yeah, I agree that such "predictions" are mostly doomsaying apocalypticism.

However, I'm still worried about social cohesion and civil peace. You don't need a majority of Muslim immigrants to be violent for that to happen. How many people do you need to wage civil unrest -- on both sides? Could 5000 or 10,000 on both sides willing to take up arms be enough to, say, set Paris on fire?
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I am somewhat worried as well, but from a historical perspective it does not happen. There were far far more migrants entering the US in a shorter time, who also refused to "integrate" instantly and yet there was no civil war.. just saying. Now there was "problems", but that was mostly brought on by racism rather than conflict between "races" and they burned themselves out very quickly.

I'd say rape/sexual violence is a huge problem, too.
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It is a problem, but my point has been that it has always been a problem even before the so called Muslims came. That part is often being ignored.

When you cramp groups of people who are mostly male (ca. 70%, IIRC) and young (most between age 15-40) into cramped camps, without the opportunity to work, without much else to do to pass the time, and lots of factors causing frustration -- no matter the culture or origin of that group, there would always be problems. (I'm even sure a similar thing would happen if you exposed native Germans of a similar demographic to these conditions.)
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Yes I agree. Which is why we need to process these groups faster and kick out those that are not suppose to be here.. start with the Albanians, Bosnians and Serbs.. that should cut at least a few % out.

Now add to that their origins in cultures that rely more heavily on traditional gender roles, and where suppression of sexual impulses is extreme and enforced via social control, and of course the flipside will be an explosion of these suppressed impulses and lack of restraint.
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I dont disagree, but those "traditional gender roles" views are also present in our own society without the addition of outside influences like these migrants/refugees. Seems most European countries are in total denial about this. Take Eastern Europe, Poland and so on.. the traditional gender roles are very very very much in place there. All you need is to find religious type people, past or present and you have those gender roles. The amount of times my late father commented about female directors in business made my skin crawl.. Women are not good to run companies bla bla . Just saying that the "traditional gender role" issue is hardly limited to the Muslim community.

As far as I can see, the main problem is not "Islam" and its demands per se, but the extreme hypocrisy that arises in cultures where there are extremely strict behavioral codes enforced via social control. You see a different, albeit not entirely different phenomenon among Catholic priests who molest kids, or Bible Belt conservatives who are all the more unhinged when nobody's looking. A society that expects from young males to not even talk to women or look them in the eyes, where even shaking hands with a woman is considered "sexual", where young males are expected to fully suppress their natural impulses, is a sure recipe for hypocrisy and disaster.
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I dont disagree. But again you have Christian western politicians saying that girls should dress more conservatively... long before this current crisis. You have people saying that women often are partly to blame for their rapes, because they happened to have hotpants on or something like that.. Those attitudes are no different than the male dominated Muslim society..

But you're right when you say that the doomsayers often underestimate the power of our societies to assimilate even Muslim immigrants, IMO. While those who don't may pose huge problems allright, a large number of them is successfully seduced and assimilated thanks to the benefits and attractiveness of open, liberal Western culture.
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As I see it, assimilation of these migrants is often based on where they come from. Refugees from Afghanistan.. hard to assimilate, where as from Syria and Iraq (depends on where), is much more easy because of their western like lifestyle before the conflicts. Religion has not much to do with assimilation unless you are banning religious practices of course.
 
German guy said:
There won't be an influx of 1.5 mio to Germany for the next 5-6 years. I'm pretty sure a revision of the German policies is only weeks ahead, with or without Merkel.
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Ha. It's like predicting the fall of the Berlin wall in early 1989, could be this year, could be 5-6 years. I'm rooting for this year but I won't count my chickens before they hatch.

German guy said:
If I'm wrong after all, I owe you a drink and I'm doing my best to migrate to Canada to escape this ****hole in the making. ;)
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Sounds like a fair deal. :D
 
PeteEU said:
Oh this happened when?



No such party.. in fact "Muslim" partiticpation in politics is highly limited.



There is sex-ed classes for all citizens... your point? And what rape problem?



Miss-leading bull**** claim. Ever ask what parts of Sharia law they want? Of course not!
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/w...ks-denmark-hesitates-to-blame-islam.html?_r=0

VIDEO: VIOLENT Muslim Riots in Denmark, POLICE ATTACKED | Pamela Geller

Danish Muslim Party claims that Denmark will be the first Muslim nation in Europe | Pamela Geller

https://www.rt.com/news/319150-denmark-muslims-koran-laws/

Denmark: Muslims who whipped woman in face with iron chains laughs in court | 10News.dk

You were right about the police cars burning though.....they were only attacked. ( my bad )

http://www.thelocal.dk/20151019/forty-percent-danish-muslims-wants-quran-based-laws
 
German guy said:
My concerns with Muslims in Europe today are not about the food, clothes or architecture they bring. They can bring as much of that as they like.

What I'm worried about are their attitudes and cultural values, that pose a potential threat to liberal values generations of Europeans have bitterly fought for; such as regarding equality of men and women, monopoly of power for the state, public rather than private law, religion being a private and not public matter, respect for homosexuals.

None of that played a role 700+ years ago.

That millions of Muslim migrants from cultures who hold very different attitudes on these matters than (at least liberal) Europeans do, may at least potentially pose a huge challenge to these liberal achievements, is a claim that cannot be dismissed off-hand. If it's supposedly indeed not a serious problem, I'd rather read good arguments for why it isn't.
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Well, I agree that big numbers of refugees does present a challenge and ought to be handled with compassion, intelligently, and with justice. Once having accepted that refugees need our help, we are right to open our doors and do what we can. Germany and Sweden are shining examples of this compassion. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic (all former Communist states) and England, have presented a more cruel face and appear to have no sense of shame. Germany and Sweden in particular have are going above and beyond what is expected by civilized people. People coming in such numbers do need to be educated into the receiving culture with its humane values. This work of orientation has not happened properly, if at all. This is where our work is cut out. The refugee families, and especially the young men, have got to be put right about the expectations of the host country and care must be taken to ensure that ghettos of foreign cultures are not allowed to take root. If Syrians want to come to Germany, they must become German and embrace assimilation. Finally, we need to educate the selfish hold-out former Communist countries and England to show some compassion, pull their weight, and take their fair share.
 
Natan said:
It would take just 5-6 years or so for a constant immigration rate of 1.5 million a year to ensure Germany ends up with a muslim majority. I did the math for a 2.5 million figure back when it wasn't known yet how high the final immigration level for 2015 would be, for the 1.5 million figure it's around 3 years. For all of Europe, do the math yourself, I'd guess multiply by 5 so 25-30 years which makes 2055 a reasonable guess.

Say hello to 1984: Demographic destruction of Germany soon past point of no return
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189434.stm
the birth rate of Muslim women would need to have been about 19 times greater than their non-Muslim neighbours
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Yea right lol!

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx

Debunked.. move on. Stop posting far right neo nazi crap.
 
Heinrich said:
Well, I agree that big numbers of refugees does present a challenge and ought to be handled with compassion, intelligently, and with justice. Once having accepted that refugees need our help, we are right to open our doors and do what we can. Germany and Sweden are shining examples of this compassion. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic (all former Communist states) and England, have presented a more cruel face and appear to have no sense of shame.
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They are instead shining examples of common sense and appear to have a sense of reason.
 
Heinrich said:
Germany and Sweden are shining examples of this compassion. Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic (all former Communist states) and England, have presented a more cruel face and appear to have no sense of shame. Germany and Sweden in particular have are going above and beyond what is expected by civilized people.
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Dardania also opened its doors for the incoming refugees. The foreign minister claimed that we could take care of 500 of them even with our desperate situation. That they did not come because they knew that they cannot get rich here is their decision.

So we were compassionate also, they just did not bite. They did not even pass through here.
 
 
DDD said:
Dardania also opened its doors for the incoming refugees. The foreign minister claimed that we could take care of 500 of them even with our desperate situation. That they did not come because they knew that they cannot get rich here is their decision.

So we were compassionate also, they just did not bite.
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Of course you are right. And poor Greece deserves a special mention as well as Italy.
 
PeteEU said:
LOL you quoting Pam Geller, a neo nazi?

The Danish Muslim Party does not exist.
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The same info can be found on the major international sites. The thing is, Denmark has a Muslim problem and the government thinks that they can schmooze their way out of it.
 
RetiredUSN said:
The same info can be found on the major international sites. The thing is, Denmark has a Muslim problem and the government thinks that they can schmooze their way out of it.
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So when I google Danish Muslim Party, the only thing I get is something by Pam Geller.. and there is no registration in Denmark on a party called "the Danish Muslim Party"... that means that it does exist somehow? You do understand that political parties have be registered right? You do also understand that to even be able to run for anything, they need a hell of a lot of signatures right?
 
Natan said:
The math I did was correct but for a 2.5 million immigration rate figure for Germany. For a 1.5 million figure, it needs minor adjustment. The math in the BBC article is correct for the Netherlands, not Germany or Europe, for a muslim immigration rate of ZERO. :rolleyes:
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Okay... and who says that all those immigrants will stay? What about a reaction by locals? There are so many factors involved that makes your math so wrong.
 
Natan said:
Sometimes she gets things right. Remember that 90+ page thread where you ended up Doubting Thomas?
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No.. who what? Pam Geller is a neo nazi scum and gets nothing right.
 
PeteEU said:
Okay... and who says that all those immigrants will stay? What about a reaction by locals? There are so many factors involved that makes your math so wrong.
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The math isn't wrong, the assumptions may be. The current approval rates of asylum applications are known by the way. More or less unknown is how many stay illegally anyway.
 
The situation really is awful. If you have a heart, if you have compassion at all, of course you need to help and support people in real need to some extent. On the other side, capacities are limited and there are many risks involved. When you take in too many, more than you can handle appropriately, huge problems arise and this wouldn't be beneficial to anybody, neither to natives nor to the refugees.

It's impossible for me, in this situation, to draw a line, or to judge which kind of policy is appropriate and which isn't. I'm just lacking the information and imagination necessary to make such a claim.

My gut feeling is that 1 mio is enough, IMO. So far, the risks are still manageable. But many local officials are reporting already about an exhaustion of resources. Looks like the maximum has pretty much been reached by now.

Now let's hope Merkel soon acknowledges this too (as it looks like she's under growing massive pressure from within her party), changes her policies, defines a limit and focuses on the challenges posed by those who are here. Let's find out quickly who's an economic migrant only and deport them quickly, to release resources for those who truly need support.
 
German guy said:
The situation really is awful. If you have a heart, if you have compassion at all, of course you need to help and support people in real need to some extent. On the other side, capacities are limited and there are many risks involved. When you take in too many, more than you can handle appropriately, huge problems arise and this wouldn't be beneficial to anybody, neither to natives nor to the refugees.

It's impossible for me, in this situation, to draw a line, or to judge which kind of policy is appropriate and which isn't. I'm just lacking the information and imagination necessary to make such a claim.

My gut feeling is that 1 mio is enough, IMO. So far, the risks are still manageable. But many local officials are reporting already about an exhaustion of resources. Looks like the maximum has pretty much been reached by now.

Now let's hope Merkel soon acknowledges this too (as it looks like she's under growing massive pressure from within her party), changes her policies, defines a limit and focuses on the challenges posed by those who are here. Let's find out quickly who's an economic migrant only and deport them quickly, to release resources for those who truly need support.
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If all the European Union countries played their part, we have the resources to help all in need. Frau Merkel needs to continue to try to get cooperation from all the EU states.
 
Heinrich said:
If all the European Union countries played their part, we have the resources to help all in need. Frau Merkel needs to continue to try to get cooperation from all the EU states.
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I doubt that will happen. Half of them are pissed off at Merkel's euro policies and now pay her back, the other half is run by paranoid far-right nationalists.

Besides, it probably wouldn't even be smart. Many European countries are in way too much trouble now already. Isn't Spain's youth unemployment near 50%? How can you possibly explain to these unemployed youngesters who see no future whatsoever, that they suddenly have to compete with an additional million of foreigners? Well okay, if anybody still understood that, it'd probably be the Spanish (the only EU country that didn't fall for far-right nuts, despite all troubles lately). But think of the Italians, Greek or even French.
 
German guy said:
The situation really is awful. If you have a heart, if you have compassion at all, of course you need to help and support people in real need to some extent.
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These are Eurostat figures for Q3 - 2014 to Q3 - 2015. Around 1 million total immigrants, from various countries as tabulated. How many (from which countries?) do you believe to be in "real need"?

First_time_asylum_applicants_in_the_EU-28_by_citizenship%2C_Q3_2014_%E2%80%93_Q3_2015.png

Syrians are only 25%. 20% are Albanians, Kosovars, "Serbs". Only the top 3 countries *might* have genuine asylum seekers, and those don't even sum up to 50%.
 
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