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French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections[W:95]

Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

There is absolutely nothing complex about the father. He is quite simply "dense".

Ex French army officer ... which speaks wonders of anybody who knows that type of personage.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

You sound rather positive about them.

Not in the least. I am simply relating the facts reported.

Let me put my point in other terms:
*France once had "regions" that constituted "towns and villages",
*Those regions have been consolidated into "states" and now have "governors",
*This election was about who would govern the states, meaning obtain a majority in the state legislatures.

Marine LePen found in the pre-election poll results that the FN had a chance to run at least one state. The fact is that the first three-way primary-vote was one indicating profound resentment for the present economic situation. Turnout was low.

But, people got scared of the good FN-results. So, the second voting lifted electorate-numbers voting, and LePen lost that vote to govern a state because the FN could not muster a majority in the legislatures.

However, the total of FN representatives to the state legislatures increased - which showed:
(1) Many of the persistently unemployed young decided that the FN was not "all that bad after-all" (and the recent Paris Massacre diminished somewhat their feelings for the anti-Muslim sentiments of the FN). And,
(2) Many of those cities run by the FN were not shown to be "dens of Nazism" as the FN is often portrayed.

Both caused changes in voting sentiment regarding the FN.

I still believe that the FN has no future in France. But running a small town is not rocket-science. Budgets are small and there is not much room for chicanery or fraud, as happens in larger cities. So, the French are learning to "trust FN elected officials". At least one FN-mayor has been convicted of fraud whilst in office. (He was one added to a long historical list of other national-party mayors of the same fate.)

That the FN gained numbers in state-legislatures is sad, but it is a political fact; one largely due to the stagnation of the two main-parties (one Left the other Right) who simply exchange seats in the French legislature, but do not change governance of the country. And why?

As I never tire of saying, the French generally do not understand how their country is no longer the place where international investors really care to invest. Here's why:
*Ireland has been the major European production center for electronics due to lower labor-costs, and Germany produces high-content equipment at a higher price but a recognized higher value in terms of product reliability and on-time delivery.
*When they realized they could not compete against the China-price, many French companies dumped production (but not distribution) of their products in France and contracted Chinese manufacturers instead, and
*Lots of Russians have bought mega-euro villas on the Riviera, and even the Chinese have bought vineyards in Bordeaux, but this activity has no major impact upon the economy.

None of the above factors is the kind of investment that generates jobs in France that young graduates are looking to obtain. And the hot-shot kids who are failing a secondary-schooling degree find themselves between a rock and a hard-place as regards employment.

Every now-and-then a "story" pops-up on TV about how a company brought its manufacturing back from China. When you read-between-the-lines, however, it is obvious that the previous labor-intensive manufacturing has been replaced by expensive automated production methods. Run by fewer people, yes, but producing at a cost that still allows them to compete with Chinese manufacturers (who have undergone significant cost of labor increases over the past 5 years).

Now that production automation, however, must be amortized in costs over a long period of time. And the French manufacturers must hope that Chinese production costs will continue to rise ...
 
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Deeply sorry to disappoint you, but if they did not win a "region", they did expand their legislative representation by about a third.

Bitter pill for you ... huh?

The French will ultimately develop a two-party system as in the US. Right now, there a seven parties (four on the Right, three on the Left), only three of which obtain "significant votes" - the Republicans, the Socialists and the FN.

Time will tell ...
 
Deeply sorry to disappoint you, but if they did not win a "region", they did expand their legislative representation by about a third.

Bitter pill for you ... huh?

Not for me. I don't live there. I'd have thought it was for you anti-FN voters.

What makes you believe that France will develop a 2-party system? Do you think that eventually the traditional parties will take on board the FN's anti-migrant, isolationist positions making Le Pen irrelevant and redundant? I don't believe that will happen. I don't believe France will ever have a 2-party system because that would assume a victory for the parties of the establishment and they are not going to gain a hegemony over popular sentiment as long as they remain distant, aloof, corrupt elites that serially fail to address those points of weakness in French economy and society, some of which you've outlined.

As I said earlier, I think there are positive aspects to the strengthening of the FN: 1) It might give a kick to the traditional parties that they sorely deserve and need; 2) It will awaken the silent, moderate majority in France who have been sleep-walking towards a catastrophic change in their political culture; 3) It will force the FN to expound what they represent and what they stand for. When you approach the levers of power you cannot rely solely on slogans. Eventually you have to put flesh on the bones of your rhetoric. That won't work out well for them.

What I find interesting about the situation in France at present is the light it shines upon a wider set of assumptions. You haven't been here long, but after a while you'll notice that the people making the most noise about the migrant problems in Europe; the radicalisation of Muslim youth; the disintegration of modern Western societies etc, like to lay the blame almost entirely at the door of multiculturalism.

There's no schadenfreude attached to this, but it is reassuring somewhat to see that the same problems are afflicting France, the veritable poster-boy nation of non-multicultural, assimilation strategy in Europe, as are afflicting the countries that took a different, multicultural approach. I think we all ought to understand that those using multiculturalism as the scapegoat for everything from paedophilia to suicide bombings are making those attacks, not in order to bring about a rectification of the situation and a promotion of better co-existence, but for their own xenophobic, ideological reasons. They want to denigrate non-Western cultures because they are evangelists for what they see as the superiority of liberal-democratic politics and global capitalism. They are the neo-cons or the useful idiots of neo-cons.

Anyway, I digress slightly. Thanks for you input and analysis. It's very interesting what's happening in France. Here in Spain the anti-establishment protest movements come from the left, rather than the right. I think that is because the right-wing government is much more representative of those people who in France would be FN supporters. Also, immigration and Islamism isn't the hot-topic of political discourse that it is in France, UK, NL etc. Here it's about the economy, stupid! And corruption. The left struggles to convince on the former: the right suffers hugely on the revelation of the latter. The political debate is very different from that in France, yet strangely similar.
 
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Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

See post 56 yourself. This is a debate, in case you haven't noticed.

Stop treating people as if it were a High School class in Civics.

Either you can articulate a cogent rebuttal and add to the debate, or blather-in-a-blog.

The choice is yours to make ...

The post literally answers the questions you asked (What, in fact, do you know about them? Have you ever actually been to one of their meetings? From what information do you arrive at the above bit of scatology?). There is no need for me to literally repeat myself.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

So funny that the socialists with the little support they do have withdrew candidates to block FN!! Ahahahaha! Just shows you the socialists and the 'conservatives' work for the same bosses.
 
I don't believe France will ever have a 2-party system because that would assume a victory for the parties of the establishment ...

What "establishment"? Just one party of the Right against one party of the Left?

France is effectively almost there. The Repbulicans and UDI usually accomodate one another not to go head to head in the second round. Ditto the Socialists and the Communists. These "blocks" amass the larger percentage of votes, and the other "also ran" parties get only 10/15/20% of the vote on a good year. So, 80% of the electorate decide the sort of governance that a country obtains.

The FN is an "outsider group". Though established for more than 30 years, it is only now coming into actual governance of some French towns/villages. It's only accomplishment to date is being "established" and resisting for as long as it has. There is always a reflexive, outlandish current in any party, Right or Left. The Socialists have both the Communists and the Ecologists to contend with on the same ballot, at least in the first round.

Voter opinion spans the spectrum of beliefs, and it seems that the election system that allows all colours of the spectrum to get elected are the most changeable and weakest. Italy is certainly a good example, having had sometimes 2, 3 or 4 successive governments in a given year. The other countries shake-out the electorate such that a single-party is "clearly" the winner.

Of what I have seen personally, the only truly democratic society on earth is the one that allows National Referendums provoked by the population. I've lived in Switzerland where the petition of any question can be placed on a ballot to be voted up or down simply by collecting a sufficient number of signatures. If the balloting is to repeal a government law passed by the Swiss legislature, and it wins, then the law is repealed.

That is, to my mind, the only real democracy to be found on this earth; because it allows the people to have their own say regarding legislation - both passed and what they think should be passed.

And its democracy is very stable, with no Donald Trumps prancing around looking for attention by making outlandish remarks of highly questionable decency.
 
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Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

Anyway, it's a myth to think that only " far" right people are anti-semitic, or admire dictators. I'd tend to link the left more with nazism, actually.


I encounter dozens and dozens of antisemites on the left for every one from the right. They couch their rhetoric in a different fashion, as the righties are more direct about it and the lefties are more weasel-like in theirs, but antisemitism is far more prevalent on the left than the right.

THat doesn't make Nazis left wing, though, as they ARE far right. Most lefties these days get theirs though the alignment with Islamists.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

I suggest that you do not give co-respondents in a debate "directions".

It's like telling a child what to do and not to do ... and thus puerile.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

There is no need for me to literally repeat myself.

Repeat no, but explain, yes. You are presumptuous to think that an argument is made simply by referring to someone else's remarks? Nope, not in a debate.

I suggest that you do not give your co-respondents "directions". It's like telling a child what to do and not to do ... and thus demeaning.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

Repeat no, but explain, yes. You are presumptuous to think that an argument is made simply by referring to someone else's remarks? Nope, not in a debate.

I suggest that you do not give your co-respondents "directions". It's like telling a child what to do and not to do ... and thus demeaning.

Those are MY remarks in post #56. And they literally answer the questions you asked.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

OK. Moving right along ...
 
..............PS: I will remind you that Germany was in the same situation when Gerhard Schroeder was PM. Before leaving office, however, he did a rehaul of the German Labor Code - putting most of it in the trash. Germany then went through 2/3 years of recessionary biting the "proverbial-unemployment-bullet" but finally exited. It now has the lowest long-term unemployment rates since its postwar reconstuction. Go figure ...
The irony of that lot resting in it having cost Schroeder and his party the next election and the conservative (-led) government to follow not only having taken none of it back (despite many of the malcontented having turned towards it for that reason), but today firmly believing that it was all their idea.

Reaping in the benefits in stride.
 
The irony of that lot resting in it having cost Schroeder and his party the next election ...

No pain, no gain?

Besides Schroeder knew exactly where HE was going, and certainly not into an election. But to Switzerland, where he is working for buddy-buddy Vladimir Putin, managing Russia's external supply pipeline company.

Which, I imagine (and I am just musing), is a "bank of sorts" for reciepts earned abroad from quantities of oil/gas sold on European markets. And I'll bet as well the Russian oligarchs all have their money in Switzerland. That's where I would want my money, far, far away from the prying eyes of the US and Europe, were I Vladimir.

I have no way whatsoever of knowing, but I'll bet Schroeder has built a not-so-little nest-egg for retirement with that job ...

Nice job, if you can get it ...
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

I encounter dozens and dozens of antisemites on the left for every one from the right. They couch their rhetoric in a different fashion, as the righties are more direct about it and the lefties are more weasel-like in theirs, but antisemitism is far more prevalent on the left than the right.

THat doesn't make Nazis left wing, though, as they ARE far right. Most lefties these days get theirs though the alignment with Islamists.

That makes no sense. Care to back up your claim that lefties are far more anti-Semitic than those on the right? Data please.
 
THE BAMBOO CURTAIN

The Front National appear to have done better than many expected. They came first in 6 of 13 regions in the first round.

For a party that has a platform plank that takes France out of the European Union, just how far do you think the FN will get? (Of course, perhaps you are a Brit and share that same penchant for the UK?)

The French are solidly for the EU because they know clearly the advantage of being part of a market-economy of 600 million people is better than one of 65 million French men, women and children. Most of the EU countries understand that they are all in the same economic boat.

If the French voted strongly for the FN, its because Madam LePen is taking advantage of a present dislike for either the Left or Right parties. Who have largely done nothing to arrest Frances economic decline over the past ten years. French politicians all suffer from the same affliction. They think the sun turns around them.

What's wrong with France? It goes back to 1991, when something world-shaking happened; and neither France nor the US considered properly the consequences. That year the Bamboo Curtain came crashing down, and China came out of its shell onto the globalized market place.

Nothing has been the same since in either country ...
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

The timing of Merkel opening the floodgates to refugee/migrants was also near perfect, and I find it very difficult to accept that she did not know or suspect what would happen when she did so.

She had a very good reason for "opening the flood gates".

German industry is facing a shortage of skilled and semi-skilled workers. It needs warm bodies, to train them, and put them to work in industries. Young Germans, who tend to be highly trained, don't care to do the grunt work - like soldering, or collecting the garbage, etc.

Besides, workers bring families, families consumes, which helps turn the economic system. It's a win-win bet.

Yes, Germany perhaps cannot assimilate all the refugees who have arrived. So, some (perhaps most) will potter around for one or two years and - if the situation permits - go back to a warmer climate. They wont have much alternative, given the fact that they are locked out of the UK, the only country of which most know the language. (Refugees need visas to travel in Europe, unlike EU nationals.)

Those with skills, however, have a good chance of finding jobs - especially when Europe picks up speed ...
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

She had a very good reason for "opening the flood gates".

German industry is facing a shortage of skilled and semi-skilled workers. It needs warm bodies, to train them, and put them to work in industries. Young Germans, who tend to be highly trained, don't care to do the grunt work - like soldering, or collecting the garbage, etc.

Besides, workers bring families, families consumes, which helps turn the economic system. It's a win-win bet.

Yes, Germany perhaps cannot assimilate all the refugees who have arrived. So, some (perhaps most) will potter around for one or two years and - if the situation permits - go back to a warmer climate. They wont have much alternative, given the fact that they are locked out of the UK, the only country of which most know the language. (Refugees need visas to travel in Europe, unlike EU nationals.)

Those with skills, however, have a good chance of finding jobs - especially when Europe picks up speed ...

These illegal immigrants are not 'skilled'.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

These illegal immigrants are not 'skilled'.

Many are not, yes.

But, German industry is looking at the refugees in quite another light - see these articles from Der Spiegel and Bloomberg.

Besides, Germany has one of the most advanced "apprenticeship programs" of any European country. Whereby, students start a trade training-program and apprentice in Industry simultaneously.

The program is so successful - 95% of apprentices become full-time employees - that many other European countries are looking seriously at the German apprentice program.

The US should have a good look too. Of course, the German government assumes most of the cost of training. So, In the US, we can't have any of that, can we. We prefer to have a war somewhere and recruit kids who can't afford postsecondary schooling; and then (and only then) if they survive battle, the Army will pay their professional training/education ...
 
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Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

Many are not, yes.

But, German industry is looking at the refugees in quite another light - see these articles from Der Spiegel and Bloomberg.

Besides, Germany has one of the most advanced "apprenticeship programs" of any European country. Whereby, students start a trade training-program and apprentice in Industry simultaneously.

The program is so successful - 95% of apprentices become full-time employees - that many other European countries are looking seriously at the German apprentice program.

The US should have a good look too ...
Translation- German industry is looking for cheap labor.
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

Translation- German industry is looking for cheap labor.

Foutaise ... !

Si vous me cherchez, vous allez me trouver!
 
Re: French far-right makes major breakthrough to top regional elections

Translation- German industry is looking for cheap labor.
shows being ill educated on the situation.

Germany needs labor in general. Cheap labor does nothing for the quality advantages its goods have over many others.

In such cases where German car makers opened factories in the US, they had to run the locals all thru a whole set of new training programs, standards of even those that had worked in cars previously being far from the set mark.
 
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