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Paris and the Fall of Rome

Jetboogieman said:
It's also apparently dumb as ****.
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Whatever you say.

Niall Campbell Ferguson (/ˈniːl ˈfɜr.ɡə.sən/; born 18 April 1964)[SUP][1][/SUP] is a British historian from Scotland. He is the Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History at Harvard University. He is also a Senior Research Fellow of Jesus College, University of Oxford, a Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford University and visiting professor at the New College of the Humanities. His specialities are international history, economic and financial history, and British and American imperialism.[SUP][2][/SUP] He is known for his provocative, contrarian views.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Ferguson's books include Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World and Civilization: The West and the Rest, all of which he has presented as Channel 4 television series.
In 2004, he was named as one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine. Since 2011,[SUP][dated info][/SUP] he has been a contributing editor for Bloomberg Television[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] and a columnist for Newsweek.
 
Higgins86 said:
We could be on the verge of an extremely violent era in Europe. The rise of ISIS and the success they are having with online recruitment completely changes the game for me and we are just not ready for it. Our governments, security and most importantly our populations have yet to see this threat. I don't know about you gunner but most of the TV, news, social media etc this week has been in support of Islam rather than the condemnation of Radical Islam. How many guardian articles have you seen this week asking the question " what is radicalizing the youth?". When the IRA did it we condemned it but now we condemn the wrong people.
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Higgs, you see it on this board. People on this forum look for all manner of reasons to blame us, rather than the perpetrators of the attacks. This is generational, and will be messy. The battle of ideas, I see as twofold, convincing our own population we have a problem and tackling the enemy, as yet, I'm not necessarily convinced both are winnable.
 
Jack Hays said:
Whatever you say.

Niall Campbell Ferguson (/ˈniːl ˈfɜr.ɡə.sən/; born 18 April 1964)[SUP][1][/SUP] is a British historian from Scotland. He is the Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History at Harvard University. He is also a Senior Research Fellow of Jesus College, University of Oxford, a Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford University and visiting professor at the New College of the Humanities. His specialities are international history, economic and financial history, and British and American imperialism.[SUP][2][/SUP] He is known for his provocative, contrarian views.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Ferguson's books include Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World and Civilization: The West and the Rest, all of which he has presented as Channel 4 television series.
In 2004, he was named as one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine. Since 2011,[SUP][dated info][/SUP] he has been a contributing editor for Bloomberg Television[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] and a columnist for Newsweek.
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Well, that sure sounds dumb as ****.

almost as dumb as **** as, say, Christopher Hitchens. He was also dumb as **** for not being politically correct.
 
O
Jack Hays said:
Whatever you say.

Niall Campbell Ferguson (/ˈniːl ˈfɜr.ɡə.sən/; born 18 April 1964)[SUP][1][/SUP] is a British historian from Scotland. He is the Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History at Harvard University. He is also a Senior Research Fellow of Jesus College, University of Oxford, a Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution, Stanford University and visiting professor at the New College of the Humanities. His specialities are international history, economic and financial history, and British and American imperialism.[SUP][2][/SUP] He is known for his provocative, contrarian views.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Ferguson's books include Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World and Civilization: The West and the Rest, all of which he has presented as Channel 4 television series.
In 2004, he was named as one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine. Since 2011,[SUP][dated info][/SUP] he has been a contributing editor for Bloomberg Television[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] and a columnist for Newsweek.
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Oh so all of a sudden someone's accolades, education and tv appearances mean every article they'll ever write is infallible.

I'll remember that the next time you dismiss a respected scientists evidence on AWG.

People love the Rome comparison but it never carries much weight wherever and whenever it's applied.
 
gunner said:
Higgs, you see it on this board. People on this forum look for all manner of reasons to blame us, rather than the perpetrators of the attacks. This is generational, and will be messy. The battle of ideas, I see as twofold, convincing our own population we have a problem and tackling the enemy, as yet, I'm not necessarily convinced both are winnable.
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You think Cameron has what it takes to lead us through this?
 
gunner said:
Higgs, you see it on this board. People on this forum look for all manner of reasons to blame us, rather than the perpetrators of the attacks. This is generational, and will be messy. The battle of ideas, I see as twofold, convincing our own population we have a problem and tackling the enemy, as yet, I'm not necessarily convinced both are winnable.
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memes. infectious memes.

They are winning the battle of ideas thanks to the meme that opposing them is racist. Why destroy us when they are proving so successful at getting us to destroy ourselves? There are literally dozens of posters on this board who never say there is anything the least bit wrong with the Islamist objective, but boy are they willing to attack anybody who does.
 
Gardener said:
memes. infectious memes.

They are winning the battle of ideas thanks to the meme that opposing them is racist. Why destroy us when they are proving so successful at getting us to destroy ourselves? There are literally dozens of posters on this board who never say there is anything the least bit wrong with the Islamist objective, but boy are they willing to attack anybody who does.
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That is absolute bull****.

It's whenever someone is uncomfortable with the idea of Muslims being discriminated against in our society you label them "apologists".

I don't agree with Islam in the slightest, like every religion, but I see a dark path before us on this subject as a society and I won't stand with the folks that want to steer us down it.
 
Gardener said:
memes. infectious memes.

They are winning the battle of ideas thanks to the meme that opposing them is racist. Why destroy us when they are proving so successful at getting us to destroy ourselves? There are literally dozens of posters on this board who never say there is anything the least bit wrong with the Islamist objective, but boy are they willing to attack anybody who does.
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Never! We're just lock step racist, you know!
 
Jetboogieman said:
That is absolute bull****.

It's whenever someone is uncomfortable with the idea of Muslims being discriminated against in our society you label them "apologists".

I don't agree with Islam in the slightest, like every religion, but I see a dark path before us on this subject as a society and I won't stand with the folks that want to steer us down it.
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What discrimination would that be?
 
Jetboogieman said:
That is absolute bull****.

It's whenever someone is uncomfortable with the idea of Muslims being discriminated against in our society you label them "apologists".

I don't agree with Islam in the slightest, like every religion, but I see a dark path before us on this subject as a society and I won't stand with the folks that want to steer us down it.
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Steer down a dark path? Is there a path any darker than the one's Islamists want you to follow? Your priorities here reveal a complete naivete' as to what we are all dealing with.

Europeans had a chance to confront a similar threat in the early thirties. They didn't. A reading of history easily reveals what a disaster it was to do nothing.
 
Jetboogieman said:
O

Oh so all of a sudden someone's accolades, education and tv appearances mean every article they'll ever write is infallible.

I'll remember that the next time you dismiss a respected scientists evidence on AWG.

People love the Rome comparison but it never carries much weight wherever and whenever it's applied.
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I only wanted to point out that "stupid" was an inappropriate objection. As for AGW, I never dismiss academic or scientific achievement because that's not really the issue.
 
And the top o' the morning to ya, Mr. Godwin.
 
gunner said:
He's infinitely better than the other guy, if that helps.
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yeh about that guy...If he got voted in I would move back to the States with the wife.
 
Higgins86 said:
yeh about that guy...If he got voted in I would move back to the States with the wife.
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To be honest, I think Labour will come to their senses. But your alternative sounds attractive, all the same :)
 
gunner said:
To be honest, I think Labour will come to their senses. But your alternative sounds attractive, all the same :)
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Unless Trump get's in, then its plan B. Iceland lol.
 
gunner said:
To be honest, I think Labour will come to their senses. But your alternative sounds attractive, all the same :)
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Seriously though Gunner we have both served and I'm not normally one of those guys who demands military first etc. But the idea of that coward having any kind of control over my former regiment makes me ill.
 
Jack Hays said:
". . . The distant shock to this weakened edifice has been the Syrian civil war, though it has been a catalyst as much as a direct cause for the great Völkerwanderung of 2015. As before, they have come from all over the imperial periphery — from North Africa, from the Levant, from South Asia — but this time they have come in their millions. . . ."
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The ancient prehistoric volkerwanderungs are a fact sure.

But Europe is letting the Syrians in now because the Europeans are gullible fools.

The Europeans should enforce their borders.

The Greeks are making things worse by ferrying the Syrians across the Aegean.
 
joG said:
I am more worried about the way their actions might affect our all lives.
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Greetings, JoG. :2wave:

:agree: This plan has been a long time in the making, IMO, and it seems the priority at the moment is to cause chaos, confusion and shock...and ultimately fear, especially in the US. That part of the plan seems to be working - look at how quickly over half of the States in this Country have gone on record stating they will not accept Syrian refugees without major changes in the vetting process! On the other hand, we have also been told that various law enforcement agencies are already monitoring those who arrived here previously. :shock: Do the jihadists really believe they can conquer America, or WTH are they thinking? :thumbdown:
 
Jack Hays said:
Like the Roman Empire in the early fifth century, Europe has allowed its defenses to crumble.
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What? Rome didn't allow it's defenses to crumble. The Empire's inability to defend itself was the result of an economics and political system incapable of supporting a nation of Rome's size, combined with famine and civil war forced the West to rely increasingly on Foederati troops to supplement it's inability to raise and maintain a large standing army. The weakining of the Western Roman Empire to defend itself was largely due to events beyond their control, namely the en masse migration of the Alans and the Vandals.

As its wealth has grown, so its military prowess has shrunk, along with its self-belief.
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Um, no. The Roman Empire maintained a professional standing army that required large sums of money to support, probably half of the government's entire tax revenue. When it's wealth decreased, so did it's military capability.


It has grown decadent in its shopping malls and sports stadiums.
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The last gladiators were recorded as happening in the Coliseum in 435 CE. In all likelihood usage of the Coliseum and the Great Forums declined following the Crisis of the Third Century.

At the same time, it has opened its gates to outsiders who have coveted its wealth without renouncing their ancestral faith.
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Again, incorrect. Rome never opened it's gates willingly, it often times had little choice in the matter, especially after disastrous defeats at Adrianople and the Sack of Rome. Alaric and the Goths pretty much forced their way in. Even so, most modern researchers agree more often than not invading Germanic tribes were actually co-opted into helping defend territory Rome could no longer adequately control.

As before, they have come from all over the imperial periphery — from North Africa, from the Levant, from South Asia — but this time they have come in their millions. . . . "
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The Vandals, Visigoths, Ostrogoths were all Germanic tribes. The Alans and Sarmatians were Iranian, and the Hunnic ethnicity has never been completely established.

Long story short, the author does the same bull**** everyone else does; compare **** with Rome that doesn't really compare well.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
What? Rome didn't allow it's defenses to crumble. The Empire's inability to defend itself was the result of an economics and political system incapable of supporting a nation of Rome's size, combined with famine and civil war forced the West to rely increasingly on Foederati troops to supplement it's inability to raise and maintain a large standing army. The weakining of the Western Roman Empire to defend itself was largely due to events beyond their control, namely the en masse migration of the Alans and the Vandals.



Um, no. The Roman Empire maintained a professional standing army that required large sums of money to support, probably half of the government's entire tax revenue. When it's wealth decreased, so did it's military capability.




The last gladiators were recorded as happening in the Coliseum in 435 CE. In all likelihood usage of the Coliseum and the Great Forums declined following the Crisis of the Third Century.



Again, incorrect. Rome never opened it's gates willingly, it often times had little choice in the matter, especially after disastrous defeats at Adrianople and the Sack of Rome. Alaric and the Goths pretty much forced their way in. Even so, most modern researchers agree more often than not invading Germanic tribes were actually co-opted into helping defend territory Rome could no longer adequately control.



The Vandals, Visigoths, Ostrogoths were all Germanic tribes. The Alans and Sarmatians were Iranian, and the Hunnic ethnicity has never been completely established.

Long story short, the author does the same bull**** everyone else does; compare **** with Rome that doesn't really compare well.
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You should make sure Harvard knows how far Professor Ferguson has fallen short of your expectations.
 
Higgins86 said:
yeh about that guy...If he got voted in I would move back to the States with the wife.
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I've got a spare bedroom.

....and did I mention that the beer here is terrific?
 
Jack Hays said:
You should make sure Harvard knows how far Professor Ferguson has fallen short of your expectations.
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It'd be easier if people like Niall Ferguson learned to stop using history to back up their claims when the history doesn't actually support it.
 
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