Juncker declared "Brexit will not happen".

Phoenix One UK · Nov 20, 2015

joG said:
This is a point I am of somewhat different opinion than it seems you are. I think that immigration is quite good to for a nation and that it strengthens it, while putting a cap on general social spending.

It also presents major problems, and please note I am not talking about migration but mass uncontrolled migration. The following article from the Guardian may prove of interest, and note it is just on housing problem.

Damning report exposes Europe's escalating housing crisis

Damning report exposes Europe's escalating housing crisis | World news | The Guardian

AND

Cameron must not fudge hard-line EU negotiation

The EU is an institution mired in crisis and Britain's immigration levels are quite simply unsustainable

Cameron must not fudge hard-line EU negotiation - Telegraph

joG · Nov 20, 2015

Phoenix One UK said:
It also presents major problems, and please note I am not talking about migration but mass uncontrolled migration. The following article from the Guardian may prove of interest, and note it is just on housing problem.

AND

If 40% is too much of personal income than move or vote for governments that will allow more and more efficient housing. Allow a guy to tear down old housing to put up extra floors and in most German cities you could double the living space, reducing rents by probably 30 or 40 percent.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 20, 2015

joG said:
If 40% is too much of personal income than move or vote for governments that will allow more and more efficient housing. Allow a guy to tear down old housing to put up extra floors and in most German cities you could double the living space, reducing rents by probably 30 or 40 percent.

Not that simple given austerity cuts across the board, including here in UK. And that is for those with a job. Those unemployed, or on welfare for other reasons are really having a tough time of it. We now even have food banks in UK not to mention an increase of those being homeless. As for Germany, I can well understand why there are more and more protests. I believe projections are that they will be receiving at least a million more refugees/migrants. Where are they going to house them? And that is just considering their growing housing problem.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 20, 2015

Have to go joG, nice debating with you.

Have a nice day everyone.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 20, 2015

joG said:
There is a good reason for questioning the "core document" as it is the more pertinent one to the general order and aim of the EU. The construct is not very convincing and is very dangerous, though, it was the Maastricht Treaty that has so far caused the greatest harm to the populations. It is also quite clearly rather doubtful in a legal sense. It is almost identical to the Constitution of the EU that the was voted against in referendum. After that the Euphiles were afraid that putting a slightly modified text to the People for a second chance like they have done before, When populations refused. So they gave the document a new name and sighned it as a Treaty in stead of calling it a Constitution. Very sleazy, indeed and probably illegal from a more objective level. Be that as it may, the legitimacy of the EU was undermined.

But the hypothesis that the Lisbon Charter is not a constitution made it easier for the German Bundersverfassungsgericht (Higher Court) zu accept it as constitutional, as it could say that it was not a "Constitution" and therefore German law and the Bundesverfassungsgericht remained sovereign, without which they would have had to judge it unconstitutional.*) The European courts and the Bundesverfassungsgericht have been very careful not to accept a case on which they would have to confront each other frontally. Instead they are running a complex dance in which the population is being readied for such a seeding of sovereign in future, when it is deemed the right time.

In fact, of course, the Lisbon Treaty is being treated as a constitution by the politicians and bureaucrats. The opinions of the populations and hypothesis of the high court be damned.

*)They floated the idea that "asking the voters" as is stipulated for the transfer of sovereignety to an other constitution might not require asking the people, as Germany was an indirect democracy and so the Parliament might be able to legitimize a new constitution. This went down in smoke.

The core issue is the original document and any that subsequently were built on it; the original forms a foundation and I will repeat again, the original treaty set out what is happening now and what will continue to happen for those embarked on ever closer union.

joG · Nov 20, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
The core issue is the original document and any that subsequently were built on it; the original forms a foundation and I will repeat again, the original treaty set out what is happening now and what will continue to happen for those embarked on ever closer union.

And it is exactly that that must be stopped, unless it is put to the individual populations in clear terms, what it will mean. Doing it in the present sleazy, dishonest and illegal way has caused untold damage to tens of millions of citizens.