Deporting illegal criminals.... a Danish problem.

PeteEU · Nov 12, 2015

In Denmark there are at least 120 convicted criminals of foreign origin that have been officially deported but have not left the country. The reason is mindboggling, but shows the weakness of not having an European wide immigration system.

120 udviste kriminelle kan ikke sendes hjem - nægter at underskrive udsendelsespapirer - Politi og retsvæsen - Indland

It is in Danish, but the crux of the problem is this.

Each country in Europe negotiates with countries of origin of illegals. So the UK has a deal with Nigeria, which is the same or different than the same deal France has, or Denmark.

The smaller the country, the crappier the deal basically. In Denmarks case, the deal includes a clause in many of the treaties, states that criminal foreigners can only be accepted in their homeland, if they agree to the deportation. This is means, that if X Iraqi criminal refuses to leave then there is absolutely nothing that Denmark can do.

So how to solve this... my solution is simple. European wide immigration system where it is the EU that makes the deals with countries of origin and not the individual countries. This way you have the full power of the EU behind you and a snot nosed country cant demand too much before the hammer falls.

Chagos · Nov 12, 2015

that would be the most sane solution.

Skeptic Bob · Nov 12, 2015

I'm confused as to why the country's size matters. If Denmark wants to deport someone how can they be stopped?

Shadowless · Nov 12, 2015

Why does the country of origin have to accept them back? That's insane. They shouldn't have a choice.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 12, 2015

PeteEU said:
~ the deal includes a clause in many of the treaties, states that criminal foreigners can only be accepted in their homeland, if they agree to the deportation. This is means, that if X Iraqi criminal refuses to leave then there is absolutely nothing that Denmark can do.

So how to solve this... my solution is simple. European wide immigration system where it is the EU that makes the deals with countries of origin and not the individual countries. This way you have the full power of the EU behind you and a snot nosed country cant demand too much before the hammer falls.

Isn't the simpler solution to remove that clause? Renegotiate the treaties because a treaty that says you can only deport someone who agrees to go isn't worth the paper it's written on.

gunner · Nov 12, 2015

Shadowless said:
Why does the country of origin have to accept them back? That's insane. They shouldn't have a choice.

It's worse than that. If the said criminal is convicted of serious crimes, and their country of origin has a dubious human rights record, there's little chance of off loading them.

Chagos · Nov 12, 2015

gunner said:
It's worse than that. If the said criminal is convicted of serious crimes, and their country of origin has a dubious human rights record, there's little chance of off loading them.

I can think of an even worse solution.

Like deporting the criminal for a crime committed in whatever EU country to where he might have his head chopped off (if lucky) of something else (if less lucky).

We're not really trying to circumvent our own concepts of human rights, afforded even to law breakers, by resorting to a special form of "renditioning", are we?

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Isn't the simpler solution to remove that clause? Renegotiate the treaties because a treaty that says you can only deport someone who agrees to go isn't worth the paper it's written on.

And how would that work?

Denmark goes to Algeria: Hey we want to renegotiate this clause.
Algeria: Okay, but it will cost you...
Denmark: Nevermind.. cheaper to keep them.

My point is, the power of Denmark or even the UK over a country like Algeria is limited.. but when their "meal ticket", aka the EU comes and does the negotiating, then you get a different answer.

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

BrewerBob said:
I'm confused as to why the country's size matters. If Denmark wants to deport someone how can they be stopped?

The country of origin has to accept them back....

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

Shadowless said:
Why does the country of origin have to accept them back? That's insane. They shouldn't have a choice.

Of course they have a choice. They can deny entry to anyone they want according to their own laws.. and that includes their own citizens. These people dont exactly come from the most stable parts of the world after all..

Shadowless · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
Of course they have a choice. They can deny entry to anyone they want according to their own laws.. and that includes their own citizens. These people dont exactly come from the most stable parts of the world after all..

That sounds awful. Well, maybe the Danes should send them home anyway, they can't be sent back haha.

PIPEWRENCH · Nov 13, 2015

We have approximately 350,000 aliens currently sitting in jail in this country. Plus 10 million more running a muck illegally in this country. Then you can add in the unknown number that committed crimes and haven't been caught. Lets not forget the unknown number that have been released from jail and prison back onto the streets to continue their criminal career. Denmark couldn't even comprehend the magnitude of the problem in this country. This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the illegal aliens.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
And how would that work?

Denmark goes to Algeria: Hey we want to renegotiate this clause.
Algeria: Okay, but it will cost you...
Denmark: Nevermind.. cheaper to keep them.

My point is, the power of Denmark or even the UK over a country like Algeria is limited.. but when their "meal ticket", aka the EU comes and does the negotiating, then you get a different answer.

Using your example. Denmark could easily stop the $80 million in imports from Algeria if Algeria refused to renegotiate a treaty and accept its criminals back.

PIPEWRENCH · Nov 13, 2015

The solution is simple. Either they go back to their country or Denmark should put them in a boat outside Denmark's jurisdiction (international water) and let them decide where they want to go. It they attempt to invade Denmark have the military sink them.

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Using your example. Denmark could easily stop the $80 million in imports from Algeria if Algeria refused to renegotiate a treaty and accept its criminals back.

That would hurt Denmark more than Algeria..

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

PIPEWRENCH said:
The solution is simple. Either they go back to their country or Denmark should put them in a boat outside Denmark's jurisdiction (international water) and let them decide where they want to go. It they attempt to invade Denmark have the military sink them.

And break every single human right on the books... making North Korea look like a small time offender..

Phoenix One UK · Nov 13, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Isn't the simpler solution to remove that clause? Renegotiate the treaties because a treaty that says you can only deport someone who agrees to go isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Renegotiate the Treaties? Cameron fell into that trap, and is still trying to dig is way out. The EU is doing everything possible to achieve its goals without the need for treaty change. The reason they want to avoid it is simple. For a treaty change to happen every member state must agree. And that will not happen.

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

Phoenix One UK said:
Renegotiate the Treaties? Cameron fell into that trap, and is still trying to dig is way out. The EU is doing everything possible to achieve its goals without the need for treaty change. The reason they want to avoid it is simple. For a treaty change to happen every member state must agree. And that will not happen.

He means the treaty between Denmark and X nation of the criminal.... not a non existent EU treaty on the matter. And it is doubtful that an unified extradition treaty would require any sort of referendum anywhere.. it is not giving away sovereignty.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
He means the treaty between Denmark and X nation of the criminal.... not a non existent EU treaty on the matter. And it is doubtful that an unified extradition treaty would require any sort of referendum anywhere.. it is not giving away sovereignty.

Oh really. I recall a few here in UK could not be deported because it would violate their Human Rights, which in UK must abide by Convention Rights. Now, the Court of Human Rights is not part of EU, but member states must also conform to ECHR rules.

By the way, I had to laugh when I first read the headline "Deporting illegal criminals.... a Danish problem." The best way to understand why is for me to pose the question. Are there any legal criminals?

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

Phoenix One UK said:
Oh really. I recall a few here in UK could not be deported because it would violate their Human Rights, which in UK must abide by Convention Rights. Now, the Court of Human Rights is not part of EU, but member states must also conform to ECHR rules.

Err yes, but the UK wanted to deport them and break not only their own laws but that of the ECHR, which they wrote and forced on the rest of us..

But the extradition treaties in Europe are handled between individual countries.. there is no unified treaty or agreement on it. Hence the British extradition treaty with the Americans is very different than the French one.

By the way, I had to laugh when I first read the headline "Deporting illegal criminals.... a Danish problem." The best way to understand why is for me to pose the question. Are there any legal criminals?

Well.. point is, they are not only criminals but also illegal migrants because they dont have any legal right to be there.... blame the language barrier.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 13, 2015

'Unacceptable' UK can't deport Abu Qatada - Theresa May

7 February 2012
From the section UK Politics

It "isn't acceptable" that the UK cannot deport radical cleric Abu Qatada to Jordan, the home secretary has said.

Theresa May told MPs the government was "considering all legal options" open to it - including referring the case to the European Court's grand chamber.

Abu Qatada is due to be released on bail, after the European Court of Human Rights ruled he could not be deported.

'Unacceptable' UK can't deport Abu Qatada - Theresa May - BBC News

I must disagree with headline. It is not just a Danish problem, it is a problem for all EU member states.

PIPEWRENCH · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
And break every single human right on the books... making North Korea look like a small time offender..

Without a doubt. Of course coddling criminals is not the answer either.

Once you have been ordered to leave a country you are not a citizen of I think that makes you an invader as well as a criminal. These criminals need to reap what they sow. Instead, the decent people and there laws they have no respect for, must pay for there crimes. I guess it is OK for them to violate the rights of the decent people without consequence. I say it is time for consequences for your actions and not positive ones for criminals with no respect for the law.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
Well.. point is, they are not only criminals but also illegal migrants because they dont have any legal right to be there.... blame the language barrier.

I note the word illegal, which means they broke the law. I believe that makes them criminals.

PeteEU · Nov 13, 2015

PIPEWRENCH said:
Without a doubt. Of course coddling criminals is not the answer either.

Once you have been ordered to leave a country you are not a citizen of I think that makes you an invader as well as a criminal. These criminals need to reap what they sow. Instead, the decent people and there laws they have no respect for, must pay for there crimes. I guess it is OK for them to violate the rights of the decent people without consequence. I say it is time for consequences for your actions and not positive ones for criminals with no respect for the law.

Well we are not the US so we dont do such things.

But one alternative could be shipping them to Greenland.. plenty of isolated areas there they can enjoy.

PIPEWRENCH · Nov 13, 2015

PeteEU said:
Well we are not the US so we dont do such things.

But one alternative could be shipping them to Greenland.. plenty of isolated areas there they can enjoy.

Excellent idea. Northern coast of Greenland would be appropriate.

Parachute them in like Bear Grylls except no camera crew.