Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warns

DDD · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
AND

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

Though "helps" may not be an appropriate word. It is of no help to me to see a fellow EU member suffering the consequences of refugee crisis.

We have signed the stability and cooperation agreement with EU and now get to call you a "fellow EU member" see!

Montecresto · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warns

GERMAN Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned of fresh conflicts in Eastern Europe if countries fail to properly manage the refugee crisis.

Migrant crisis - German Chancellor Angela Merkel says Balkan tensions risk new war | World | News | Daily Express

Unquote:==============================

Well, I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone played that card, but I never expected it from Merkel. But then again, Merkel did contribute greatly to EU refugee/migrant crisis with her open invitation. She may want to consider another possibility, and that is one of open rebellion in her own native Germany with protests against the flood of refugees/migrants coming into Europe not limited to Germany. A major protest in Milan Italy referred to influx as an invasion, and how can you argue with that given the numbers involved?

So this whole idea of Western interference in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries is biting back, huh, who could have known.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
Thanks.

Though "helps" may not be an appropriate word. It is of no help to me to see a fellow EU member suffering the consequences of refugee crisis.

We have signed the stability and cooperation agreement with EU and now get to call you a "fellow EU member" see!

I can well understand that, and despite being anti EU, I am not anti Europe. I possess relatives in Italy, France, and even Germany. And that is just in Europe. Lost track of most, especially those in USA and Canada.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Montecresto said:
So this whole idea of Western interference in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries is biting back, huh, who could have known.

I assume you are speaking of Hostilities taken against countries like Iraq. I actually wrote an article on that entitled "Tony Blair: Politician, Terrorist, or both?". The headline should tell you what I thought of that action, and I believe a copy of it should still be floating round on net, including Channel 4 archives.

DDD · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
I assume you are speaking of Hostilities taken against countries like Iraq. I actually wrote an article on that entitled "Tony Blair: Politician, Terrorist, or both?". The headline should tell you what I thought of that action, and I believe a copy of it should still be floating round on net, including Channel 4 archives.

When will you guys leave Tony alone?

Phoenix One UK · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
When will you guys leave Tony alone?

For me personally, I lost interest in him when he left power, as for his actions in Iraq war that issue is still before the Chilcot’s war inquiry, and I certainly have no say on any conclusions it will eventually make.

Montecresto · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
I assume you are speaking of Hostilities taken against countries like Iraq. I actually wrote an article on that entitled "Tony Blair: Politician, Terrorist, or both?". The headline should tell you what I thought of that action, and I believe a copy of it should still be floating round on net, including Channel 4 archives.

Right. If we could only have Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad back in operational control.

Montecresto · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
When will you guys leave Tony alone?

A lot of innocent Iraq civilians are dead due to Tony's support of Bush's blunder!

DDD · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Montecresto said:
A lot of innocent Iraq civilians are dead due to Tony's support of Bush's blunder!

References?

Phoenix One UK · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Watch: Migrants riot at RAF base in Cyprus as they DEMAND immediate entry to the UK

VIOLENT scenes have erupted at a British army base in Cyprus as migrants burnt their emergency tents, brawled with police and even threatened to HANG themselves if they weren't allowed direct passage to the UK.

Europe migrant crisis: Refugees riot at RAF base in Cyprus and demand entry to Britain | UK | News | Daily Express

There are a number of areas where refugees/migrants are attempting to enter the UK, but scenes like this will not do them any favours with British public, which are already largely opposed to migrants from other member states. They do not even have to read such in any newspaper, or listen to any broadcast on TV or radio to tell them what they see every time they leave their front door.

Montecresto · Nov 4, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
References?

Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

Btw, Tony's come clean if you hadn't heard.

DDD · Nov 5, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Montecresto said:
Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

Btw, Tony's come clean if you hadn't heard.

I have, but I posit that he should not have, not for the points he made at least.

To get back to the reference though:

A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.

The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate.

Coalition forces were blamed for 35 percent of the killings, followed by militias at 32 percent.

More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.

So, out of 405,000 people killed the coalition is directly blamed for 141,705 "people," the rest was either Al-Qaeda militia or stress related. Although the article claims to have searched the households it is not clear whether the people whom have died from the coalition were civilians or loyal soldiers of Saddam. If the later then this was a war and the coalition had suffered losses also:

Some 4,804 U.S., British, and other coalition armed service members died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Montecresto · Nov 5, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
I have, but I posit that he should not have, not for the points he made at least.

To get back to the reference though:

So, out of 405,000 people killed the coalition is directly blamed for 141,705 "people," the rest was either Al-Qaeda militia or stress related. Although the article claims to have searched the households it is not clear whether the people whom have died from the coalition were civilians or loyal soldiers of Saddam. If the later then this was a war and the coalition had suffered losses also:

Oh ****, my bad, 142,000 innocent civilians dead at the hands of coalition forces is nothing. What was I thinking.

DDD · Nov 7, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Montecresto said:
Oh ****, my bad, 142,000 innocent civilians dead at the hands of coalition forces is nothing. What was I thinking.

Where in the article does it mentions that 141,705 that were killed were innocent civilians?

Montecresto · Nov 7, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
Where in the article does it mentions that 141,705 that were killed were innocent civilians?

What part of this perplexes you or would have you believe that it's in reference to AQ fighters?

War and occupation directly and indirectly claimed the lives of about a half-million Iraqis from 2003 to 2011, according to a groundbreaking survey of 1,960 Iraqi households.

The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate. More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.

DDD · Nov 8, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Montecresto said:
What part of this perplexes you or would have you believe that it's in reference to AQ fighters?

What perplexes me is the confusion that the article makes while attempting to summarize the study. What frustrates me is inaccess to the study itself!!!! So now we will have to resort to guessing rather than read actual figures!!!

Here for instance:

Montecresto said:
War and occupation directly and indirectly claimed the lives of about a half-million Iraqis from 2003 to 2011, according to a groundbreaking survey of 1,960 Iraqi households.

The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate. More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.

I calculated the number 141,705 that was killed from the coalition forces. Nearly just as much was killed from Al Qaeda. So now you have that confusing number 60% that applies to all forms of killing "of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals."

Begs the questions: Just how freaking many of children alone from that "60%" is the coalition alone (removing AQ) to be blamed for!?

AQ could kill in all the ways mentioned above except airstrikes, and it could also be blamed for secondary indirect deaths of said civilians. Who is responsible for the murdering how many children is missing in the darn summary!

Further, men and women whom have also died is mentioned. Just because the data were taken from "households" it does not proves that they are "innocent civilians." If we had access to the original study we could have known more about this point. But as it is it could be loyal soldiers of Saddam attacking the coalition from their households?

Then, you have that vague number "60%" again, that also applies to this population as well as includes both killing forces such as AQ and the coalition. So the question again is: Just how many of men and women whom are definitely civilians from that "60%" is the coalition alone (removing AQ) to be blamed for?

As it is the report summary is very messy. Just put all the killing factors in one place (coalition, AQ, stress), claim a number that 60% died from them all (without being precise exactly who killed whom and to what degree?), and keep their connection to Iraqi military vague with the "household" comment, and you end up with a pretty messed up summary, that cannot answer the questions above!

Montecresto · Nov 8, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

DDD said:
What perplexes me is the confusion that the article makes while attempting to summarize the study. What frustrates me is inaccess to the study itself!!!! So now we will have to resort to guessing rather than read actual figures!!!

Here for instance:

I calculated the number 141,705 that was killed from the coalition forces. Nearly just as much was killed from Al Qaeda. So now you have that confusing number 60% that applies to all forms of killing "of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals."

Begs the questions: Just how freaking many of children alone from that "60%" is the coalition alone (removing AQ) to be blamed for!?

AQ could kill in all the ways mentioned above except airstrikes, and it could also be blamed for secondary indirect deaths of said civilians. Who is responsible for the murdering how many children is missing in the darn summary!

Further, men and women whom have also died is mentioned. Just because the data were taken from "households" it does not proves that they are "innocent civilians." If we had access to the original study we could have known more about this point. But as it is it could be loyal soldiers of Saddam attacking the coalition from their households?

Then, you have that vague number "60%" again, that also applies to this population as well as includes both killing forces such as AQ and the coalition. So the question again is: Just how many of men and women whom are definitely civilians from that "60%" is the coalition alone (removing AQ) to be blamed for?

As it is the report summary is very messy. Just put all the killing factors in one place (coalition, AQ, stress), claim a number that 60% died from them all (without being precise exactly who killed whom and to what degree?), and keep their connection to Iraqi military vague with the "household" comment, and you end up with a pretty messed up summary, that cannot answer the questions above!

Lol, I'm sorry buddy that that report has you so confused. So, since whether or not you acknowledge the reports numbers of civilians killed by coalition forces, won't change a thing, I won't attempt any further. I'll just say that when you google, "new figures on Iraqi death toll" you find plenty of other sources and studies. I suggest that if you care to know, try another.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 9, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

EU could break up ‘within months,’ says Asselborn

Luxembourg’s foreign minister has warned that the migration crisis and introduction of border controls between countries could lead to the collapse of the EU.

“The European Union can break apart. This can go incredibly fast, when isolation instead of solidarity becomes the rule internally and externally … We may have only a couple of months,” Jean Asselborn told the DPA news agency. Luxembourg holds the rotating presidency of the European Council.

He said the Schengen area of passport-free travel was under threat from the rise of national “solutions” to the migration crisis, and slammed far-right politicians who seek to make gains out of the crisis. “This false nationalism can lead to a real war,” Asselborn said.

EU could break up ‘within months,’ says Asselborn – POLITICO

And there it is again, the word WAR, only this time from Luxembourg’s foreign minister Asselborn.

The EU's attempt to curb the continuing refugee/migrant crisis is clearly not going well. The EU are even telling Merkel that Berlin must curb migrant flow ( EU tells Merkel that Berlin must curb migrant flow | The Times - Note you need to be a subscriber of Times to read entire article using this link. However, the Times stated source was German publication Die Welt.)

It is unlikely that the EU will succeed in implementing external border controls with flood of refugees/migrants continuing. The EU left it to late with its open border policy and Merkel's invitation creating a flood they do not know how to stop.

Elsewhere I noted Greece was making headlines not to mention Portugal, which questions if it will become another Greece.

Between the Eurozone and migrant crisis, the EU has succeeded in increasing eurosceptism in Europe.

Appendage: Here is another link:

Senior Europhile Admits Migrant Crisis Could Break Up EU, Lead To ?Actual War?

Chagos · Nov 9, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
And there it is again, the word WAR, only this time from Luxembourg’s foreign minister Asselborn.

The EU's attempt to curb the continuing refugee/migrant crisis is clearly not going well. The EU are even telling Merkel that Berlin must curb migrant flow ( EU tells Merkel that Berlin must curb migrant flow | The Times - Note you need to be a subscriber of Times to read entire article using this link. However, the Times stated source was German publication Die Welt.)

It is unlikely that the EU will succeed in implementing external border controls with flood of refugees/migrants continuing. The EU left it to late with its open border policy and Merkel's invitation creating a flood they do not know how to stop.

Elsewhere I noted Greece was making headlines not to mention Portugal, which questions if it will become another Greece.

Between the Eurozone and migrant crisis, the EU has succeeded in increasing eurosceptism in Europe.

Appendage: Here is another link:

Senior Europhile Admits Migrant Crisis Could Break Up EU, Lead To ?Actual War?

Not to detract from the actually existing problems, but you seem to show a propensity for reading (and linking to) "exotics" (kindly put).

Is that where you get your news first?

Just interested.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
And there it is again, the word WAR, only this time from Luxembourg’s foreign minister Asselborn ~

I don't believe Germany has a big enough enough armed forces to wage war on anyone and for Luxembourg to be talking of war is even less realistic.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Chagos said:
Not to detract from the actually existing problems, but you seem to show a propensity for reading (and linking to) "exotics" (kindly put).

Is that where you get your news first?

Just interested.

The supplied link was with Times, and it supplied its own source being a National German publication. If you used the supplied links you would note what was quoted also originated from Nation German TV station. Note the selected source supplied provided the story in English, and that was main reason for using them.

Phoenix One UK · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Infinite Chaos said:
I don't believe Germany has a big enough enough armed forces to wage war on anyone and for Luxembourg to be talking of war is even less realistic.

I believe you may have misunderstood what they were saying. They are not saying Germany would go to war, but are saying other member states could possibly go to war. I personally believe they are saying it in an attempt to scare people to avert the EU being dissolved. Fear is the name of the game, and we are certainly seeing a lot of propaganda along those lines here in UK to scare people into not voting for Brexit.

Chagos · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Infinite Chaos said:
I don't believe Germany has a big enough enough armed forces to wage war on anyone and for Luxembourg to be talking of war is even less realistic.

The worry, justified or not, applies to East Europeans having at each other. Specifically the former Yugoslavia.

Chagos · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Phoenix One UK said:
The supplied link was with Times, and it supplied its own source being a National German publication. If you used the supplied links you would note what was quoted also originated from Nation German TV station. Note the selected source supplied provided the story in English, and that was main reason for using them.

Yeah, I just noticed breitbart, RT, politico and the likes. None of which I'd hold to be mainstream.

At the same time you seem determined to push a version by which you insinuate European war, respectively let others speak about it, never showing interest in stating context or detail.

It's pretty clear that your main agenda is one of bashing the EU to the point of hoping for its total failure. Or am I getting the wrong vibes here?

Phoenix One UK · Nov 10, 2015

Re: Refugee crisis could spark WAR if Austria closes border with Germany, Merkel warn

Chagos said:
Yeah, I just noticed breitbart, RT, politico and the likes. None of which I'd hold to be mainstream.

At the same time you seem determined to push a version by which you insinuate European war, respectively let others speak about it, never showing interest in stating context or detail.

It's pretty clear that your main agenda is one of bashing the EU to the point of hoping for its total failure. Or am I getting the wrong vibes here?

I believe a national German TV and publications quoted from qualifies as main stream. With regard the breakup of EU may lead to war between some member states, I trust you noted I did not make such a claim, and supplied links to those who did. Note, I understand the video footage had been included on YouTube, though I had not sighted this. With regard EU bashing, I am not sure how to respond to that. I made no secret here or elsewhere that I had been an anti EU activist since 1997, and the main reason for that was to regain sovereign powers that past governments surrendered. Further, there are two camps. Europhiles and eurosceptics. I fall in latter category. I am British, and proud of it. Britain is my home and country. Where Europhiles spend a great deal of putting the UK down, I, and many like me, respond by discrediting much of propaganda fed to general population. It should be noted that when I started there was no support to speak of from national press. I, and many like me, spent hours within both the EU and British archives to acquire facts not known to general population. Times have changed, and there is a lot more support for Eurosceptic camp in the press than there used to be.