UK study: poor white boys get worst start in life

Infinite Chaos · Oct 30, 2015

If you're white, male and poor enough to qualify for a free meal at school then you face the toughest challenge when starting out in life.
That's what the Equality and Human Right Commission (EHRC) has said in "the most comprehensive review ever carried out on progress towards greater equality in Britain". Link.

Interestingly, a Parliamentary committee report showed three most possible (not definite) reasons why white male kids do worst.

I personally think a combination of 1 and 3 are the biggest factors though there is also the factor of quality of school. Certainly poor immigrants (both white and non-white) often see school as a chance to get out of poverty here whereas those born into poverty over generations may have become resigned to life being like that.

I certainly noticed this last two years that white Polish kids have an amazing work ethic but the three Poles who failed badly at college have lived in the UK longest. The ones who come into UK school aged 13 or so and above are just workaholics.

DDD · Oct 30, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Interestingly, a Parliamentary committee report showed three most possible (not definite) reasons why white male kids do worst.

I personally think a combination of 1 and 3 are the biggest factors though there is also the factor of quality of school. Certainly poor immigrants (both white and non-white) often see school as a chance to get out of poverty here whereas those born into poverty over generations may have become resigned to life being like that.

I certainly noticed this last two years that white Polish kids have an amazing work ethic but the three Poles who failed badly at college have lived in the UK longest. The ones who come into UK school aged 13 or so and above are just workaholics.

A congruent observation with findings. Anything about Albanians?

betuadollar · Oct 30, 2015

I hate to say this but setting the bar at a C grade or higher isn't saying much. In fact I'm not sure it's saying anything. It makes the point that poor minorities do better than poor white boys. But the study is skewed, what would the results have been if they surveyed for a B or better? Probably some of those demographics would have dropped out.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 30, 2015

DDD said:
~ Anything about Albanians?

I don't think they drill down to specific nationality yet.

betuadollar said:
I hate to say this but setting the bar at a C grade or higher isn't saying much. In fact I'm not sure it's saying anything. It makes the point that poor minorities do better than poor white boys. But the study is skewed, what would the results have been if they surveyed for a B or better? Probably some of those demographics would have dropped out.

C-grades are an international standard...

As for your bet, if you look at some of the best graded schools across the UK you'd be paying out.

betuadollar · Oct 30, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
I don't think they drill down to specific nationality yet.

C-grades are an international standard...

As for your bet, if you look at some of the best graded schools across the UK you'd be paying out.

To establish an international grading standard would require international standard testing so I wouldn't say that a C grade in an intentional standard, no. But if it were it would imply a merely passing grade. I think the study is intentionally prejudicial.

Infinite Chaos · Oct 30, 2015

betuadollar said:
To establish an international grading standard would require international standard testing so I wouldn't say that a C grade in an intentional standard, no. But if it were it would imply a merely passing grade. I think the study is intentionally prejudicial.

PISA-based Test for Schools - OECD

The UK is pretty low on the table when you look at Western Nations, about the same place as the USA (We're one higher than you. :2wave

Natan · Nov 3, 2015

The reason is dysgenics. Same reason black people in the US are not advancing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn#Dysgenics_and_eugenics

HonestJoe · Nov 3, 2015

betuadollar said:
I hate to say this but setting the bar at a C grade or higher isn't saying much. In fact I'm not sure it's saying anything. It makes the point that poor minorities do better than poor white boys. But the study is skewed, what would the results have been if they surveyed for a B or better? Probably some of those demographics would have dropped out.

“C-grade or higher” is one of the standard measures of achievement for cohorts of students and probably what was already available in the published statistics. Given the results ranged from 25% to 80%, it seems like it was the right level for them to be looking at in this context. I don’t see what shifting to “B-grade of higher” would have changed other than reducing all of the figures somewhat. The differences may have altered but I doubt the overall pattern would be all that different.

The point here is to indicate the significant difference which needs looking at in greater details to establish causes and solutions.

betuadollar · Nov 3, 2015

HonestJoe said:
“C-grade or higher” is one of the standard measures of achievement for cohorts of students and probably what was already available in the published statistics. Given the results ranged from 25% to 80%, it seems like it was the right level for them to be looking at in this context. I don’t see what shifting to “B-grade of higher” would have changed other than reducing all of the figures somewhat. The differences may have altered but I doubt the overall pattern would be all that different.

The point here is to indicate the significant difference which needs looking at in greater details to establish causes and solutions.

I don't really trust statistics anymore than I trust the politics that create them. It could be that minority immigrants are more upwardly mobile, or more isolated in communities therefore less subject to peer pressure. Or it could be that white students feel more stigmatized by their poverty. Most of these have working-class expectations that are less reliant on education anyway.

Perhaps immigrant minorities would rather not do manual labor? Perhaps greater prejudice amongst manual labor occupations limits availability to minorities.

It could even reflect poor salaries awarded those who pursue education, relative to those who labor. Unless one is trying to make a political point I fail to see why it matters.

HonestJoe · Nov 3, 2015

betuadollar said:
I don't really trust statistics anymore than I trust the politics that create them.

Blindly dismissing them is no better than blindly accepting them. The rational thing is to take them at face value and make a judgement call. I see no good reason to doubt the validity of these figures, especially on the basis you seemed to want to and given the only conclusion is that we need to look further in to it, it doesn’t seem at all controversial.

le bouffon · Nov 3, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Interestingly, a Parliamentary committee report showed three most possible (not definite) reasons why white male kids do worst.

I personally think a combination of 1 and 3 are the biggest factors though there is also the factor of quality of school. Certainly poor immigrants (both white and non-white) often see school as a chance to get out of poverty here whereas those born into poverty over generations may have become resigned to life being like that.

I certainly noticed this last two years that white Polish kids have an amazing work ethic but the three Poles who failed badly at college have lived in the UK longest. The ones who come into UK school aged 13 or so and above are just workaholics.

Agreed. A very interesting study.

I noticed this after moving from Surrey to East London. A lot of it is cultural and education being a ticket out of poverty.

betuadollar · Nov 3, 2015

HonestJoe said:
Blindly dismissing them is no better than blindly accepting them. The rational thing is to take them at face value and make a judgement call. I see no good reason to doubt the validity of these figures, especially on the basis you seemed to want to and given the only conclusion is that we need to look further in to it, it doesn’t seem at all controversial.

No one's going to look further into this; nobody cares why white boys score lower. What are you going to do, give poor whites more money? Maybe attempt to coddle them more? That's not going to happen. Society needs its auto-mechanics. So this is just a political statement.

HonestJoe · Nov 3, 2015

betuadollar said:
No one's going to look further into this; nobody cares why white boys score lower. What are you going to do, give poor whites more money? Maybe attempt to coddle them more? That's not going to happen. Society needs its auto-mechanics. So this is just a political statement.

You’re right, that is a political statement. That’s not a window, it’s a mirror.

There are people looking in to this kind of thing all the time, though their results being ignored or dismissed because people don’t like them or make assumptions about their motives won’t help. The manner in which they reported doesn’t help either. Most of the stuff in the public domain is actually rather pointless. Of course, because so many people don’t actually care, there aren’t enough checks and balances on what is done as a consequence.

betuadollar · Nov 3, 2015

HonestJoe said:
You’re right, that is a political statement. That’s not a window, it’s a mirror.

There are people looking in to this kind of thing all the time, though their results being ignored or dismissed because people don’t like them or make assumptions about their motives won’t help. The manner in which they reported doesn’t help either. Most of the stuff in the public domain is actually rather pointless. Of course, because so many people don’t actually care, there aren’t enough checks and balances on what is done as a consequence.

Well I think there's an assumption that a different approach will somehow change human nature. It hasn't worked in the US.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

betuadollar said:
No one's going to look further into this; nobody cares why white boys score lower. What are you going to do, give poor whites more money? Maybe attempt to coddle them more? That's not going to happen. Society needs its auto-mechanics. So this is just a political statement.

Something was done when it was realised that girls did worse in school; something was done when it was realised black kids did worse in school. I think your answer is relevant to the culture you come from and how it views the weakest in your society.

It's not applicable elsewhere.

Natan said:
The reason is dysgenics. Same reason black people in the US are not advancing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn#Dysgenics_and_eugenics

The fact the same peoples do better in another country rubbishes your theory and that of the person who came up with that theory.

betuadollar · Nov 3, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Something was done when it was realised that girls did worse in school; something was done when it was realised black kids did worse in school. I think your answer is relevant to the culture you come from and how it views the weakest in your society.

It's not applicable elsewhere.

The fact the same peoples do better in another country rubbishes your theory and that of the person who came up with that theory.

I disagree. Human nature is always relevant to circumstance.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

betuadollar said:
I disagree. Human nature is always relevant to circumstance.

You are perfectly in your rights to disagree, shame though is that things actually did happen when it was recognised a particular group were doing badly at school.

Natan · Nov 3, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Something was done when it was realised that girls did worse in school; something was done when it was realised black kids did worse in school. I think your answer is relevant to the culture you come from and how it views the weakest in your society.

The fact the same peoples do better in another country rubbishes your theory and that of the person who came up with that theory.

It's not the same people. White people in the UK and black people in the US have suffered over half a decade of dysgenics, Africa hasn't.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

Natan said:
It's not the same people. White people in the UK and black people in the US have suffered over half a decade of dysgenics, Africa hasn't.

Kookie theory or what? There's no starting to answer such discredited theories as yours. Ah well, there was always the risk of such posts on a thread like this.

Natan · Nov 3, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
Kookie theory or what? There's no starting to answer such discredited theories as yours. Ah well, there was always the risk of such posts on a thread like this.

It's a "cookie" theory because you associate eugenics with nazism and you oppose it. Unfortunately, sticking your head in the sand will not make the problem go away. Idiocracy was not a comedy, it was a documentary.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

Natan said:
It's a "cookie" theory because you associate eugenics with nazism and you oppose it. Unfortunately, sticking your head in the sand will not make the problem go away. Idiocracy was not a comedy, it was a documentary.

Eugenics was cross the political divide so no, your kookie theory (cookies are food) is still rubbish. The Bell Curve was discredited decades ago and only die hard eugenicists and dysgenisists believe in it.

Natan · Nov 3, 2015

Discredited politically. Never claimed different.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

Natan said:
Discredited politically. Never claimed different.

If you're so determined, please provide proof then. Give me the scientific proof

Natan · Nov 3, 2015

Infinite Chaos said:
If you're so determined, please provide proof then. Give me the scientific proof

There is a genetic base for intelligence and it doesn't take a genius to see that social policies encouraging the irresponsible and dimwitted to get their many children supported by the state, are making things only worse.

Infinite Chaos · Nov 3, 2015

Natan said:
There is a genetic base for intelligence and it doesn't take a genius to see that social policies encouraging the irresponsible and dimwitted to get their many children supported by the state, are making things only worse.

I don't want hyperbole, I want your proof. If you are so confident you can produce scientific papers and proof easily and which has been published in various reputable international studies on genetics and intelligence.

UK study: poor white boys get worst start in life

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