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UK population revised upwards

People are really missing the actual issue here. The grandchildren of the Polish immigrants will be speaking English, adapting to British values, and indistinguishable from any other Brit.

The grandchildren of Muslim immigrants will be living in mini states, pressing for preferential treatment wherever they dominate, persecuting those unlike them and will be involved in Jihad -- not all of them, of course, but in disturbing numbers nevertheless.
 
Gardener said:
People are really missing the actual issue here. The grandchildren of the Polish immigrants will be speaking English, adapting to British values, and indistinguishable from any other Brit.
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That's certainly what happened in North America. This debate may have had more credibility post WWII but seems crazily out of place now.
The grandchildren of Muslim immigrants will be living in mini states, pressing for preferential treatment wherever they dominate, persecuting those unlike them and will be involved in Jihad -- not all of them, of course, but in disturbing numbers nevertheless.
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The evidence is already in, while no one knows who these second and third generation poles really are. Radicalised Muslims in UK more likely to be born in Britain, rich and depressed | UK Politics | News | The Independent
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Sorry, the case is made and there are Academic research papers on the phenomenon.

Basically, if you trained as a doctor in Hungary / Poland / Czech Republic but you can earn more as a sweeper or carpenter in the UK than you could back in your home country then you are going to seek that work.
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Yes and? Dont you think that having such a higher education makes you more stable and have a better work ethic than someone who did not bother or have the ability to go through the education?

It's not so much about laziness, more about where your labour will earn you more for your effort. I'm not saying that UK workers aren't qualified or willing to do that same work but an employer has a tendency to go with the better qualified. Many of these worked and then had enough to buy a house in Poland after 3-4 years work whereas they would have had to work for decades in Poland for the same money.
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Yes and? Brits go to other countries to do exactly the same.. dont hear them complain much.. oh yea, those that do go are the higher educated.. I have meat tons of Brits overseas, all who are higher educated and have worked or are working in places like Dubai, Saudi Arabia, US, and so on.. at high paying wages. Where do they often go when they retire? Not the UK! :)

Anyhow, I am one of the first to recognise the work ethic of Polish workers in particular but the EU doesn't allow us pick and choose so we also get EU migrants from other countries who don't have the same ethic.
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And why should the EU do that? That is discrimination. However there is soon a natural selection going on.. lets put it this way. You got a Brit, Pole, Bulgrian and Albanian.. The first to get hired is the Pole, then the Brit or Bulgarian and then the Albanian.. No need to really have any EU rules that allow the UK or anyone to dictate who comes to your country. Plus there are already rules in place that actually do..

You need a job or have a bank account that is nice and fat plus health insurance... it is up to the UK to determine how much and what constitutes as a job.. that automatically leaves a ton of people out. Say you have to have 5000 pounds in a UK bank account plus private health insurance to stay if you have no job. And only full time (not two part time) jobs are allowed. That is legal and done else where.

That the British (and others) dont use their powers to kick out non residents that are a burden to society, is not the problem of the EU.. the rules are there so you can do it! A good example, is in Belgium an immigrant was kicked out of the country because her job at the national theatre was partially funded by the state, and hence she was a burden. This was legal... stupid but legal.

My point is, the rules are in place to deal with mass EU migration, but the UK and many other countries dont use those rules because it is so much easier politically to bitch about things than fix them. The very fact that the anti-EU crowd in the UK thinks that the jobs that EU migrants are getting today, will automatically go to Brits if they leave.. is idiotic. It most likely will mean that the jobs go unfilled and the work undone. Guess you could put enforced civil conscription forcing unemployed lazy Brits into the fields and low paying work places..
 
PeteEU said:
Yes and? Dont you think that having such a higher education makes you more stable and have a better work ethic than someone who did not bother or have the ability to go through the education?
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That may be true but it's a waste of Poland's funding resources to pay to educate lawyers and dentists who then end up sweeping corridors and picking fruit or laying bricks in another country.

PeteEU said:
~ Yes and? Brits go to other countries to do exactly the same.. dont hear them complain much..
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These the same lazy Brits you were complaining about? You're defeating your own argument..

PeteEU said:
~ And why should the EU do that?
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Too late now but that mad dash pushed by US administrations for the EU to admit all and sundry from Eastern Europe wasn't the best idea of all was it? At least the US isn't pushing so hard for Turkey to join anymore now.

PeteEU said:
~ unemployed lazy Brits into the fields and low paying work places..
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Oh dear.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
That may be true but it's a waste of Poland's funding resources to pay to educate lawyers and dentists who then end up sweeping corridors and picking fruit or laying bricks in another country.
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Yes it is, and that is somehow relevant to the UKs anti-immigration stance?

These the same lazy Brits you were complaining about? You're defeating your own argument..
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No I am not, and of course not. Not all Brits are lazy and I have never said they all were. But you do have (like Denmark and other countries) a large portion of the population who are uneducated living off the state baffons who have the basic skills to get employed in many of the jobs that the anti-immigration crowd moan about. Funny how no one in the anti-EU/immigration crowd moan about the French and German bankers or the Danish sports stars or other wealthy people who are taking away jobs from the British as well?

Oh dear.
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You know exactly who I am talking about... they exist in all countries. If the worst off in society are unwilling to take up basic jobs like cleaning or building site grunt, then you have a serious societal problem.. or dont you agree?
 
PeteEU said:
Yes it is, and that is somehow relevant to the UKs anti-immigration stance?
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There isn't a unified anti-immigration stance. There are varying shades of a stance focusing on a range of immigration issues but we're digressing from your claim regarding overqualified workers in low(er) skill employment.

PeteEU said:
~ No I am not, and of course not. Not all Brits are lazy and I have never said they all were.
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Think you need to make that more obvious in future.

PeteEU said:
~ You know exactly who I am talking about... they exist in all countries. If the worst off in society are unwilling to take up basic jobs like cleaning or building site grunt, then you have a serious societal problem.. or dont you agree?
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No, I was addressing your "lazy Brits" comment even though you say in your last post that you're not saying all Brits are lazy. You imply it in every post despite your arguments being rubbished at every turn. (Builders / over~skilled migrant workers etc etc)
 
Infinite Chaos said:
There isn't a unified anti-immigration stance. There are varying shades of a stance focusing on a range of immigration issues but we're digressing from your claim regarding overqualified workers in low(er) skill employment.
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What claim? All I stated is that qualified migrants take jobs from unqualified Brits and qualified lazy Brits.. it is just a fact.

No, I was addressing your "lazy Brits" comment even though you say in your last post that you're not saying all Brits are lazy. You imply it in every post despite your arguments being rubbished at every turn. (Builders / over~skilled migrant workers etc etc)
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My arguments are hardly being rubbished.. And I am stating lazy Brits because that is what we are talking about, but if you care to admit also.. I also stated the same about Danes and other nationalities. I have consistently stated that it is a problem across western Europe.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Lots of ways to look at this:

50% of the growth comes from migration. Some will say all muslims / 3rd World / refugees but others will point at the EU open border policy which means many from within Europe are free to come.

50% of the growth does not come from migration so are those coming from the children of migrants (the argument is growth in the UK is at cost of white population) and not many (not enough?) white children are being born.

Too many people, we're an over crowded Island (say that while sitting in the Argyll Peninsula) vs a lot of the growth will be around London and major metropolitan areas in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Too many immigrants, they will take up the resources vs we need someone to pay the welfare bill for the resident citizens

We're growing while Germany, Italy etc are shrinking and we will be the powerhouse nation vs we don't produce enough, we live longer and we have to import most of our food.

Where do you stand on this?
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And some parts of the country are not populated enough Ageing population will cause economic burden for Scotland (From Herald Scotland)
 
Gardener said:
People are really missing the actual issue here. The grandchildren of the Polish immigrants will be speaking English, adapting to British values, and indistinguishable from any other Brit.

The grandchildren of Muslim immigrants will be living in mini states, pressing for preferential treatment wherever they dominate, persecuting those unlike them and will be involved in Jihad -- not all of them, of course, but in disturbing numbers nevertheless.
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British values? When do British expats adhere and learn the values, language and customs when retiring abroad to Spain, etc?
 
le bouffon said:
British values? When do British expats adhere and learn the values, language and customs when retiring abroad to Spain, etc?
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Hope you do not mind my jumping in, but it seems to me that anyone who moves to live in another country must accept to laws and values of that country. I, for one, lived 30 years in Australia, and, contrary to what many believe, Australia's way of life is closer to that of USA than UK. I had also lived in Italy, though only for three months in 1972m and had no problem accepting their way of life and laws. Fact is, I found speaking Italian an easy language to learn, and was speaking Italian quite well in about a month. In contrast, despite being British, I consider English a difficult language to learn, but it remains my preferred language, and is the only language I know now.

British values? How does one respond to that? How about American values? What makes an American? America was once a British colony for over 200 years, and number of laws still remain. The only true American (if I may say) is red Indian. Most of American citizens would probably find their heritage started from Europe, especially the UK.

I am British by choice and birth, and many are just by choice or birth. This does not in any way implies that I am anti Europe or anti American, and why should it?

I had been an anti EU activist since 1997, and have largely retired from that role, though I do try to assist the out campaign at times, which does not apply here. What does apply is understanding the difference between being anti EU and anti European. The EU is a custom union, the latter a continent. The UK will always be a part of Europe whether it likes it or not, but it does not have to be a member of EU, which is an organisation that I believe the UK would be better off without.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
Hope you do not mind my jumping in, but it seems to me that anyone who moves to live in another country must accept to laws and values of that country. I, for one, lived 30 years in Australia, and, contrary to what many believe, Australia's way of life is closer to that of USA than UK. I had also lived in Italy, though only for three months in 1972m and had no problem accepting their way of life and laws. Fact is, I found speaking Italian an easy language to learn, and was speaking Italian quite well in about a month. In contrast, despite being British, I consider English a difficult language to learn, but it remains my preferred language, and is the only language I know now.

British values? How does one respond to that? How about American values? What makes an American? America was once a British colony for over 200 years, and number of laws still remain. The only true American (if I may say) is red Indian. Most of American citizens would probably find their heritage started from Europe, especially the UK.

I am British by choice and birth, and many are just by choice or birth. This does not in any way implies that I am anti Europe or anti American, and why should it?

I had been an anti EU activist since 1997, and have largely retired from that role, though I do try to assist the out campaign at times, which does not apply here. What does apply is understanding the difference between being anti EU and anti European. The EU is a custom union, the latter a continent. The UK will always be a part of Europe whether it likes it or not, but it does not have to be a member of EU, which is an organisation that I believe the UK would be better off without.
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You moved to a country that speaks English as the primary language and was colonized by the British Empire, hence, the similar cultural values. This is typical British expat mentality. There are tons of fish and chip shops in the coastal regions of Spain, where British enclaves occur and little assimilating with the country/citizens occurs. Marbella and Alicante are perfect examples of this.

I was referring to British expats moving to Spain, Italy, France, etc, where English isn't the primary language and where cultural values differ. You're delusional to believe Australia's life is "closer to that of the USA than UK" as the USA doesn't have a queen, a parliamentary system, use of metrics of measurement, etc. The rest of your reply is babble.
 
le bouffon said:
You moved to a country that speaks English as the primary language and was colonized by the British Empire, hence, the similar cultural values. This is typical British expat mentality. There are tons of fish and chip shops in the coastal regions of Spain, where British enclaves occur and little assimilating with the country/citizens occurs. Marbella and Alicante are perfect examples of this.

I was referring to British expats moving to Spain, Italy, France, etc, where English isn't the primary language and where cultural values differ. You're delusional to believe Australia's life is "closer to that of the USA than UK" as the USA doesn't have a queen, a parliamentary system, use of metrics of measurement, etc. The rest of your reply is babble.
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I also moved to a country that did not, Italy. Lived there for over 3 months just outside of Bari. As for the Queen, what does that have to do with anything? The Queen possesses no political powers as such, and must comply with Parliament. Even the Queen's speech when given is not written by her but Prime Ministers office. The USA has a President, and there are a number of other countries on the planet that also has a president.
 
Phoenix One UK said:
I also moved to a country that did not, Italy. Lived there for over 3 months just outside of Bari. As for the Queen, what does that have to do with anything? The Queen possesses no political powers as such, and must comply with Parliament. Even the Queen's speech when given is not written by her but Prime Ministers office. The USA has a President, and there are a number of other countries on the planet that also has a president.
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Living there for 3 months doesn't make you an expat. Many tourist visas last 3 months. Also, you completely ignored my point of British expats not assimilating to the country they reside in, or learn the language. Goodbye.
 
le bouffon said:
Living there for 3 months doesn't make you an expat. Many tourist visas last 3 months. Also, you completely ignored my point of British expats not assimilating to the country they reside in, or learn the language. Goodbye.
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Never said it made me an expat, and I believe I should add something. I am British by birth and choice. My parents, however, became British by choice. My father remained in Britain after WWII. He did not migrate to Britain by choice but chose to remain and become a British subject. He was a British POW who fought against the British in North Africa.
 
le bouffon said:
British values? When do British expats adhere and learn the values, language and customs when retiring abroad to Spain, etc?
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You think there is no difference between a statistically insignificant number of British retirees moving to Spain and enormous numbers of young Arab men moving to Britain, eh?

I am far too intelligent to fail to notice the many differences, myself, including the relative similarity of shared ideology, the age, and the intent. If you lack that ability, that's your problem.

..and soon to be Britain's in increasing numbers, magnitude and frequency.
 
Gardener said:
You think there is no difference between a statistically insignificant number of British retirees moving to Spain and enormous numbers of young Arab men moving to Britain, eh?

I am far too intelligent to fail to notice the many differences, myself, including the relative similarity of shared ideology, the age, and the intent. If you lack that ability, that's your problem.

..and soon to be Britain's in increasing numbers, magnitude and frequency.
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Migration is migration. :)

Gardener said:
Poles look pretty white to me.


In any case, despite your trying to make immigration about race, it really hinges on the ability to assimilate and become British. If a person is willing to do that, their race does not matter. If they are unwilling, then their race is no excuse.
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Going back to my original point: the chip shops in Spanish coastal towns, British expats making enclaves so they don't have to learn Spanish, only proves my point. The British expats are doing the same thing, except they cry wolf when their actions are repeated in the UK. It's ironic.

Gardener said:
I am far too intelligent to fail to notice the many differences, myself, including the relative similarity of shared ideology, the age, and the intent.
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I bow to your intellect.
 
Sorry Angela Merkel, but after 10 years it's time for you to go

Europe's most influential leader finds herself facing a crisis that may spell the end of her Chancellorship

What is it about the rule of 10? Ten years at the top in European politics seems to be more than enough and Angela Merkel, who celebrates a decade as Chancellor of Germany this autumn, is finding this out fast. Suddenly, instead of barking orders to Europe, she is begging other states to share the burden of her emotional response to the migrant crisis.

Europe’s most influential nation grows ever closer to matricide as her stance on the crisis sees her increasingly ostracized. Repudiated by her coalition partners, by German business and trade unions who say they cannot integrate the new arrivals into the economy and by local councils who say they do not have the housing space, her position is precarious.

Sorry Angela Merkel, but after 10 years it's time for you to go | Voices | The Independent

Unquote:======================

I highlighted the part that is relevant to topic under debate in bold. The biggest problem is not immigration, it is mass uncontrolled immigration. Something that has been happening in UK for a very long time, and long before the EU refugee/migrant crisis came to be. Such levels are unsustainable.
 
PeteEU said:
What claim? All I stated is that qualified migrants take jobs from unqualified Brits and qualified lazy Brits.. it is just a fact.
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Haha.

You've certainly qualified your statement from a few pages back, without blinking an eye. The way you wrote it implied very differently. What you now have is meaningless because if it happens everywhere then what benefit does the EU provide? If the UK closed borders then that work would still be done by someone, you could even imply that EU migrant workers are keeping wages down because if they were blocked from entry then demand would push wages up.

PeteEU said:
My arguments are hardly being rubbished.. And I am stating lazy Brits because that is what we are talking about, but if you care to admit also.. I also stated the same about Danes and other nationalities. I have consistently stated that it is a problem across western Europe.
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And as I show above, playing Devil's Advocate shows that "problem across Europe" might be solved by blocking free movement and forcing employers to pay a proper wage to entice people to work.
 
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