On the surge of immigrants to Germany

Since this section seems to have been overrun by xenophobic trolls lately, I'd like to present some information on the topic, to correct the many false claims.

The information you can read all over "the media" here (it's a typical falsehood in the narrative of xenophobes and neo-Nazis here that "the media" does not report this or that, while in reality, it's just them refusing or incapable of reading it -- after all, in their eyes "the mainstream media is "Lügenpresse" ("lying press") and only reports propaganda fabricated by the CIA, unlike Russia Today, which reports the whole story) goes as follows (I can provide links later if required):

According to estimates/samples, 13% of the refugees arriving in Germany have university education, another 24% high education; on the other side, ca. 15%-20% are illiterate or barely literate.

80% of those arriving are below the age of 40 (which qualifies the education figures, considering a large number is even below the age of 20). About two thirds are male.

Most are coming from Syria, but significant numbers from Afghanistan, Eritrea and Nigeria.

Germany has not closed the borders to Austria, but merely started controlling people passing the border via some routes; it's a measure to control the influx rather than terminating it. That's because the limits and capacities are exhaust and only so many refugees can be registered and sheltered per day.

There are several fake stories about the government allegedly confiscating private apartments to house refugees; those are obvious falsehoods, designed and circulated among neo-Nazis and their sympathizers to rally them up against the government. When someone points to such claims, it's a pretty strong indication for the nature of his sources of information (namely far-right propaganda blogs and sites).

Finance Minister Schäuble (center-right CDU) has provided €6 billion immediately, stressing that thanks to Germany's good economy and austerity policy in the past years, the state can easily afford this sum or even more if necessary.

Some personal experience:

My wife, daughter and I were on a visit to my parents today. When we went back home, I saw from the car that in the next biggest street to my parents' home, refugees were apparently housed: It used to be a boring bureau building, part of the local ministry for health. Now I saw many African people in front of it, and obviously people were living there, and some had hung out German flags from the windows.

After we had gone back home, and my daughter was asleep, I told my wife I want to go back there; so we quickly collected old, but still usable clothes. I took these three bags, went to a nearby shop and bought 12 bottles of beer, and then went on to the place.

At first, I saw a couple of security guards in front of the building, and just told them about my wish to drop some clothes and get to know the people. They were not authoritarian or square at all, but in colloquial language told me that I can either give the clothes to some central point inside the building, or just go over to the guys sitting there -- which I did.

There was a couple of guys gathered, about six people I think, and I introduced me, told them about the clothes and offered them beer. They were very grateful about the clothes and said they're of good use to them (all of this in English; they talked English with each other, some spoke better English, some worse; and in some cases, a person next to them translated in their African language).

When I got in a talk with them, I learned that they had just arrived 2 days ago, and most of them hadn't known each other before. Yet they were behaving like comrades, or brothers in arms, which is a testimony of the things they had been through. Most were from Africa, Eritrea and Ethiopia, one from Senegal. There were a couple of Afghanis, too, one Syrian and one guy from Ukraine (he was from Kiev, but had flown because the loyal Ukrainian army is now drafting older people too, and he refused to do military service).

The Syrian and some of the Afghanis didn't want to drink beer, and I apologized not to have any non-alcoholic drinks with me. The Syrian appeared rather uninterested, he just sat aside and didn't take efforts joining our talk. Maybe he didn't speak English at all, or he was busy with his own thoughts, and I didn't bother him any more. One Afghani spoke fluently Russian with the Ukrainian. I learnt he had gone to the university of Kabul and learnt Russian and English there, and he hopes to continue studying here in Germany.

My bag with a couple of extra beer bottles had been laying open aside all the time, but none of them served themselves, or attempted to take one more. There was nothing disorderly about their behavior at all. None of them was begging or asking for anything. And said Syrian aside, none of them seemed to be too sad or wallowing in pity -- they more had the natural semblence of people who had been through too much to worry.

At 9:30pm, the security guards approached us and told us -- not ordered us, but told us in a very friendly manner, Arabic and English, that we shall please go inside, because the neighbors may be bothered by too loud talking. None of them voiced any disagreement, each of them was very understanding and sympathetic. I asked the guard if it's okay if I go inside with them, and he told me I can go for another 30 minutes, because then, they have to make sure the hall is no longer busy.

So I went there with an Ethiopian I had talked with before, and another guy from Eritrea. We sat down at a table in the hall, where several others, mostly families with little kids were sitting. The Ethiopian (whose name I've forgotten, it was rather unusual to my ear), told me his story. His Eritrean friend didn't say much, as his English was bad, but sometimes, the Ethiopian would translate for him in their native language. He told me he used to teach English at the university, and has some experience with Westeners, as he gave the tourist guide whenever someone came there.

We talked a lot, about the political situation, the political climate in Germany, and also a few words about his travel here. Considering he told me he had been in prison in Libya, and how horrible that was -- weeks without seeing the sunlight and choleric guards --, he was of a very good mood. He said he's happy to finally be here, though of course "there is no place like home", as we both agreed.

It were the refugees who reminded me I have to go now, they started emptying the room as they were told, so I shook hands, told them goodbye and wished them good luck.

On the way out, I talked with the guards for a moment: They were Germans with Arab background, chosen for the job because of their Arabic language skills. They were very friendly.

Recent polls are showing a majority of Germans is optimistic, yet the country is divided: Roughly two thirds support the government's policies, while one third opposes it:

Polls: Politbarometer 9/11/2015
The decision to allow refugees in was good: 66%, it was bad: 29%
Do you think Germany can handle this influx? Yes: 62%, no: 35%
Economic refugees from West Balkan countries (Kosovo, Albania, Montenegro) shall be turned down and sent back home, as the government proposes? Agree: 74%, Disagree: 17%
Do you think the other EU countries will help Germany? Yes: 24%, no: 72%
What do you think about the actions Germany is taking to help refugees? Germany does too much: 17%, right enough: 57%, too few: 21%
Among other questions.

Merkel's decision has not had any visible influence on the results of the different political parties in polls so far:


The lastest polls:
Christian Democrats (center-right CDU/CSU): 42% of the votes (41.5% in 2013)
Social Democrats (center-left SPD): 25%-26% (25.7% in 2013)
Green Party (progressive-environmentalist B'90/Grüne): 10%-11% (8.4% in 2013)
Left Party (far-left/socialist Linke): 8%-9% (8.6% in 2013)
-------- 5%-hurdle -- no party with less than 5.0% enters the parliament ---------
Free Democrats (libertarian FDP): 4% (4.8% in 2013)
Alternative for Germany (right-wing populist AfD): 4% (4.7% in 2013)
all others well below.

These polls results are extremely stable. There were hardly any changes in the past 2 years, since the last election. If this continues until 2017, even the result of the election would be "more of the same" -- another Merkel/Gabriel government.
It remains to be seen if the right-wing AfD, which has a clear anti-immigration stance, will benefit from the topic of refugees on the long term. So far, it hasn't.

Vice Chancellor and Minister for Economy Sigmar Gabriel (center-left SPD) called this refugee influx "the greatest task since German Reunification". He also claimed the figure for those arriving this year has to be corrected up to 1 million. Furthermore, he said he assumes 500,000 more will arrive in the next year (400,000 have arrived in 2014 already).

Another aspect to consider: Despite Merkel bathing in a public perception of her generosity, she certainly had very pragmatic reasons in mind, too. The flood of refugees is a problem; they're there, and no matter if the EU closes its borders, they won't go away. Certainly, assuming the EU erected a kind of Berlin Wall and shot everybody who attempts to come in, including women with children, the resulting public uproar would be devastating and nothing the EU could afford.

On the other side, Germany has a huge demographic problem: Due to low birthrates among natives, estimates show that without immigration, there would be less than two employees financing one pensioner in 40 years. The entire pension system would collapse. Because of that, a law for regulated immigration has been in the talks for years.

Now Merkel apparently decided to make one solution out of two problems. Perhaps the immigrants aren't exactly the kind of high skilled immigrants we would have preferred, but they're here already anyway; so let's try it.

Also, one should keep in mind that only half of the registered immigrants are actually accepted for asylum; those who come from countries that are considered "safe", such as the Western Balkans, are sent home again anyway.


IMO, this is a very risky decision by Merkel. If the integration of the asylum seekers goes well, it would be very beneficial for all sides involved. But it could go wrong big time. We cannot know how many sleepers are among the refugees, sent by IS or Al Qaida, pretending to be refugees. We don't know yet how the refugees will adopt to German/Western culture here. And it's uncertain how strong the backlash among native far-right xenophobes will be.

Financing the refugees and their integration in terms of housing, language courses and so on will be a huge effort, but Germany can easily pay for it in the given situation; the integration of East Germany 25 years ago was certainly much more expensive. But this is based on the assumption the economy goes on well, that there is no severe or even existential economic crisis. In the worst case, imagine the euro currency or some banks collapsed, and we'd have a huge problem -- ethnic tensions could easily explode in this case.

It's interesting IMO that Merkel, for once, took a clear, risky position on a controversial topic. I had had no idea she has that in her. So far, she has either remained silent on a given problem until most people had forgotten it even existed; or she took the most popular course of action, so she could be sure a majority is backing her. Well meaning people called her "pragmatic", less friendly people "opportunist". Now she's finally taking a risky decision that might well backfire.

And here a bit, particularly interesting for the Islam-haters:


Aiman Mazyek, chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, warned of religious conflicts and took a hardline position: Muslim refugees arriving in Germany must be told clearly what German culture is, what kind of behavior is considered acceptable in Germany and which customs and attitudes will not be tolerated here.
"Those who feel like fighting their religious conflicts here in Germany, have forfeit the right to stay in Germany immediately. Those people have no right to be here."
"We must set up very clear rules".
The German Grundgesetz (Constitution) shall be translated into Arabic and distributed among the refugees, he said. Refugees shall get classes on German social norms in addition to language classes.
Muslim chairman in Germany asks for strict rules

German guy said:

Aiman Mazyek, chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, warned of religious conflicts and took a hardline position: Muslim refugees arriving in Germany must be told clearly what German culture is, what kind of behavior is considered acceptable in Germany and which customs and attitudes will not be tolerated here.
"Those who feel like fighting their religious conflicts here in Germany, have forfeit the right to stay in Germany immediately. Those people have no right to be here."
"We must set up very clear rules".
The German Grundgesetz (Constitution) shall be translated into Arabic and distributed among the refugees, he said. Refugees shall get classes on German social norms in addition to language classes.
Muslim chairman in Germany asks for strict rules

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The fact that he is asking for strict rules means they are currently not there. Just like in the case of Anjem Choudary in the UK, there is not really any policy, no rules, no regulation, no nothing to do something about those who would chose to preach religious extremism and send them back to whatever rock in their homeland they came crawling under from.

German guy said:

According to estimates/samples, 13% of the refugees arriving in Germany have university education, another 24% high education; on the other side, ca. 15%-20% are illiterate or barely literate.

80% of those arriving are below the age of 40 (which qualifies the education figures, considering a large number is even below the age of 20). About two thirds are male.

Most are coming from Syria, but significant numbers from Afghanistan, Eritrea and Nigeria.

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Any sources? Especially your figure of 2/3 males seems suspect.

An op that goes on and on about "Xenophobic trolls" and "Neo Nazis" precludes the possibility of intelligent discussion since it maligns anybody who opposes a massive and unprecedented influx of people from societies gripped in terrorism and religious fundamentalism. In doing so, it casts any who are concerned with the effects this will have on liberal German culture in such a negative light that any resulting conversation is framed according to a very intentional need to polarize. One either marches in absolute lockstep with the authoritarian multiculturalist party line or be called names.

German guy said:

Since this section seems to have been overrun by xenophobic trolls lately, I'd like to present some information on the topic, to correct the many false claims.

The information you can read all over "the media" here (it's a typical falsehood in the narrative of xenophobes and neo-Nazis here that "the media" does not report this or that, while in reality, it's just them refusing or incapable of reading it -- after all, in their eyes "the mainstream media is "Lügenpresse" ("lying press") and only reports propaganda fabricated by the CIA, unlike Russia Today, which reports the whole story) goes as follows (I can provide links later if required):

According to estimates/samples, 13% of the refugees arriving in Germany have university education, another 24% high education; on the other side, ca. 15%-20% are illiterate or barely literate.

80% of those arriving are below the age of 40 (which qualifies the education figures, considering a large number is even below the age of 20). About two thirds are male.

Most are coming from Syria, but significant numbers from Afghanistan, Eritrea and Nigeria.

Germany has not closed the borders to Austria, but merely started controlling people passing the border via some routes; it's a measure to control the influx rather than terminating it. That's because the limits and capacities are exhaust and only so many refugees can be registered and sheltered per day.

There are several fake stories about the government allegedly confiscating private apartments to house refugees; those are obvious falsehoods, designed and circulated among neo-Nazis and their sympathizers to rally them up against the government. When someone points to such claims, it's a pretty strong indication for the nature of his sources of information (namely far-right propaganda blogs and sites).

Finance Minister Schäuble (center-right CDU) has provided €6 billion immediately, stressing that thanks to Germany's good economy and austerity policy in the past years, the state can easily afford this sum or even more if necessary.

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it's good that Germany can afford to put up the money to take these people in, but most nations are not as prosperous as Germany. Nations like Hungary and Croatia simply can't support the influx without major negative impacts on their native citizens, and there's nothing wrong with a national policy that puts native citizens first.

Gardener said:

...One either marches in absolute lockstep with the authoritarian multiculturalist party line or be called names.

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This sounds strikingly familiar to the atmosphere created by liberal/progressives here in the U.S..

Gardener said:

An op that goes on and on about "Xenophobic trolls" and "Neo Nazis" precludes the possibility of intelligent discussion since it maligns anybody who opposes a massive and unprecedented influx of people from societies gripped in terrorism and religious fundamentalism. In doing so, it casts any who are concerned with the effects this will have on liberal German culture in such a negative light that any resulting conversation is framed according to a very intentional need to polarize. One either marches in absolute lockstep with the authoritarian multiculturalist party line or be called names.

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Look, I am very fond of intelligent and well founded right-wing opinions and voices skeptic of immigration.

The problem with your kind is that you join the bed with the worst kind of hatemongers, white suprematists and people in general driven by nothing but irrational resentment and hate. You know, Stormfront pro-Hitler kind of types.

If that's the kind of company you choose, that says a lot about you. IMO, it disqualifies you for any kind of serious debate.


So if you have anything useful to contribute beyond "hating brown people", I'm well inclined to listen. Unfortunately, 90% of the anti-refugee statements boil down to that exactly.

QuadpolarNutjob said:

it's good that Germany can afford to put up the money to take these people in, but most nations are not as prosperous as Germany. Nations like Hungary and Croatia simply can't support the influx without major negative impacts on their native citizens, and there's nothing wrong with a national policy that puts native citizens first.

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That's true. On the other side, it's not asked too much from other EU countries to show some solidarity with Germany, by taking a share of the burden. The EU is not an institution with the purpose of sucking Germany dry.

Vaguely, the OP reminds me of the humorous stories about the way people describe the beauty and wonder of the first snowfall of the year compared with their descriptions of how they feel about it eight months later.

Ray410 said:

Vaguely, the OP reminds me of the stories about the first snowfall of the year.

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Could you elaborate on this?

German guy said:

Could you elaborate on this?

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Read my post again, it's been edited slightly. I'll be interested in your further reports about your new neighbors a few months from now.

Ray410 said:

Read my post again, it's been edited slightly. I'll be interested in your further reports a few months from now.

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Do you think I'm trying to be pro-immigration here?

Well then, sir, I can only tell you you are dead wrong.

The problem is there and there is nothing we can do about it. Merkel didn't cause it; she just had the choice of either doing what she did, or erecting the Berlin Wall at the German-Austrian border and shooting everybody who wants to cross, including women and children. That was her only choice.

And if she had done the latter, you and your kind would be pointing fingers at the horrible Germans and Europeans now.

It's a pretty damn ****ed up situation, and most of it is due to America's wars in the Middle East, and we're supposed to pay the price now.

We have no choice, the people are coming anyway. So we better don't distribute lies, falsehoods and hate, but instead try to do something constructive and at least try to make it work, even if it may turn out to be a huge failure in the end. We have no choice, so we better make it work. That's all I was trying to do with my posting.

I'm not overly enthusiastic about the refugees coming, nor am I ignorant of the problems that come with it, which may well break our neck.

But the self-obsessed hateful whining of far-right extremists is not going to help in any way at this point. They should do something constructive and not bother the decent parts of the population with their childish whining and self-obsessed blather.

German guy said:

Look, I am very fond of intelligent and well founded right-wing opinions and voices skeptic of immigration.

The problem with your kind is that you join the bed with the worst kind of hatemongers, white suprematists and people in general driven by nothing but irrational resentment and hate. You know, Stormfront pro-Hitler kind of types.

If that's the kind of company you choose, that says a lot about you. IMO, it disqualifies you for any kind of serious debate.


So if you have anything useful to contribute beyond "hating brown people", I'm well inclined to listen. Unfortunately, 90% of the anti-refugee statements boil down to that exactly.

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So, you do nothing but respond with insults -- "My kind", "hating brown people", I'm "disqualified" from serious debate. What an absolutely authoritarian view of the world this represents. Why are you so afraid of anything that does not march in lock-step with you that you resort to this name-calling?

The truth of the matter is that any thinking person would look at the statistics and realize something was amiss. In a true refugee situation, the distribution would be balanced between male and female, and would follow a bell curve in regards to age distribution. That this influx is so heavily male and so concentrated in the 20-30 year old group should give you a clue, but evidently it doesn't as your preemptively dismissive walls of text indicate.

ocean515 said:

This sounds strikingly familiar to the atmosphere created by liberal/progressives here in the U.S..

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The more extreme a person is in one direction or another, the more they deal in polemics, name calling and demonization of anybody who does not offer the same dogma. The far right AND far left indulge in this same strategy.

This thread reminds me of, say, a far right anti-abortionist who rants and raves about baby killers, butchers and wanting to kill abortion doctors who then proceeds to call people butchers and baby killers if they are more moderate.

Gardener said:

So, you do nothing but respond with insults -- "My kind", "hating brown people", I'm "disqualified" from serious debate. What an absolutely authoritarian view of the world this represents. Why are you so afraid of anything that does not march in lock-step with you that you resort to this name-calling?

The truth of the matter is that any thinking person would look at the statistics and realize something was amiss. In a true refugee situation, the distribution would be balanced between male and female, and would follow a bell curve in regards to age distribution. That this influx is so heavily male and so concentrated in the 20-30 year old group should give you a clue, but evidently it doesn't as your preemptively dismissive walls of text indicate.

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It was no "name calling", but just pointing out facts. It's not my fault when you don't like it when I point out the fact that you are a useful idiot for white suprematists and neo-Nazis, and have been ever since you've started posting here.

If you want to start a crititical debate about the problems that are likely to emerge due to the huge influx of refugees to Germany, be my guest. I'm not willing to engage in your silly ideological battles, though.

I'm personally, deeply worried by the situation. And if you read my postings as affirmation, you read something into it which wasn't there.

Fact is, we cannot change the situation and have to deal with it in a constructive manner. I've never seen a single constructive statement from you ever since I've read your postings.

German guy said:

It was no "name calling", but just pointing out facts. It's not my fault when you don't like it when I point out the fact that you are a useful idiot for white suprematists and neo-Nazis, and have been ever since you've started posting here.

If you want to start a crititical debate about the problems that are likely to emerge due to the huge influx of refugees to Germany, be my guest. I'm not willing to engage in your silly ideological battles, though.

I'm personally, deeply worried by the situation. And if you read my postings as affirmation, you read something into it which wasn't there.

Fact is, we cannot change the situation and have to deal with it in a constructive manner. I've never seen a single constructive statement from you ever since I've read your postings.

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"useful idiot"


I am going to bow out of this now because you have the privilege of indulging in all the personal attacks against me you want and I am not afforded the same privilege in regards to you.

German guy said:

It was no "name calling", but just pointing out facts. It's not my fault when you don't like it when I point out the fact that you are a useful idiot for white suprematists and neo-Nazis, and have been ever since you've started posting here.

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Who the **** cares. I care about having sensible policies, not about who the nazis support.

German guy said:

Do you think I'm trying to be pro-immigration here?

Well then, sir, I can only tell you you are dead wrong.

The problem is there and there is nothing we can do about it. Merkel didn't cause it; she just had the choice of either doing what she did, or erecting the Berlin Wall at the German-Austrian border and shooting everybody who wants to cross, including women and children. That was her only choice.

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Or we could have done the third option, that is already supported by many countries. Build proper refugee camps in the neighboring countries, and send the people who are safe in neighboring countries, back to those camps.

We only need to announce that policy, and they will stop coming.

German guy said:

Look, I am very fond of intelligent and well founded right-wing opinions and voices skeptic of immigration.

The problem with your kind is that you join the bed with the worst kind of hatemongers, white suprematists and people in general driven by nothing but irrational resentment and hate. You know, Stormfront pro-Hitler kind of types.

If that's the kind of company you choose, that says a lot about you. IMO, it disqualifies you for any kind of serious debate.


So if you have anything useful to contribute beyond "hating brown people", I'm well inclined to listen. Unfortunately, 90% of the anti-refugee statements boil down to that exactly.

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A moderator should know better than to make personal attacks against a forum member.

jonny5 said:

A moderator should know better than to make personal attacks against a forum member.

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I've never seen you posting on the Europe section before. If you had, you'd know Gardener's history.

I don't say this as moderator, but as a human being: Hateful rants against refugees or particular ethnic groups are not a valid opinion, but plain inhuman and indecent. This includes factually wrong propaganda with the sole purpose of smearing such groups. Though Gardener has shown just enough restraint not to engage in this kind of stuff most of the time, he has never missed any opportunity to defend those who do and join sides with them.

There are many valid points to be brought up against Merkel's policies and decisions, or warnings of the problems that will emerge when huge numbers of culturally alien people are accepted into a Western country. However, emotional rants with no other purpose but stirring resentment are definitely not.

German guy said:

I've never seen you posting on the Europe section before. If you had, you'd know Gardener's history.

I don't say this as moderator, but as a human being: Hateful rants against refugees or particular ethnic groups are not a valid opinion, but plain inhuman and indecent. This includes factually wrong propaganda with the sole purpose of smearing such groups. Though Gardener has shown just enough restraint not to engage in this kind of stuff most of the time, he has never missed any opportunity to defend those who do and join sides with them.

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Doesn't matter, if you think that is the case then let him show it himself.

But when you answer a post, which is not a hateful rant, with personal attacks, then it makes you look bad.

German guy said:

Look, I am very fond of intelligent and well founded right-wing opinions and voices skeptic of immigration.

The problem with your kind is that you join the bed with the worst kind of hatemongers, white suprematists and people in general driven by nothing but irrational resentment and hate. You know, Stormfront pro-Hitler kind of types.

If that's the kind of company you choose, that says a lot about you. IMO, it disqualifies you for any kind of serious debate.


So if you have anything useful to contribute beyond "hating brown people", I'm well inclined to listen. Unfortunately, 90% of the anti-refugee statements boil down to that exactly.

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Unfortunately, we are given next to know wriggle room to build a narrative against mass migration, before you jump to very lazy accusations. You call for balance, and write a passage like that. Germany will most definitely suffer from such overwhelming numbers, in such a short space of time. If you think these migrants (on the whole) will be those that drive the German economy of the future, paying for your ageing population, you'll be devastatingly disappointed.

German guy said:

I've never seen you posting on the Europe section before. If you had, you'd know Gardener's history.

I don't say this as moderator, but as a human being: Hateful rants against refugees or particular ethnic groups are not a valid opinion, but plain inhuman and indecent. This includes factually wrong propaganda with the sole purpose of smearing such groups. Though Gardener has shown just enough restraint not to engage in this kind of stuff most of the time, he has never missed any opportunity to defend those who do and join sides with them.

There are many valid points to be brought up against Merkel's policies and decisions, or warnings of the problems that will emerge when huge numbers of culturally alien people are accepted into a Western country. However, emotional rants with no other purpose but stirring resentment are definitely not.

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Witnessing such scenes of thousands, upon thousands of people from areas that have next to nothing in common, with the vast majority of Europe; will of course make the subject emotive. To me, Germany has took leave of its senses.