• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Germany and the Netherlands defense minister say they want an European Army

Peter King

Peter King

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
29,957
Reaction score
14,683
Location
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
 
Peter King said:
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

Ireland won't provide troops or agree to it. Ireland's Constitution states it's neutral.
 
Just wait for Hillary to give her response in 2016.
 
This brings back memories of Command and Conquer: Rise of the Reds.

I approve.
 
Peter King said:
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

All sorts of Eurocorps and other integrated units already exist and have demonstratie that a European Army is an illusion. What is needed is cooperation and integration along existing European armed forces, not a European Army.
 
LeoVlaming said:
All sorts of Eurocorps and other integrated units already exist and have demonstratie that a European Army is an illusion. What is needed is cooperation and integration along existing European armed forces, not a European Army.
Click to expand...

I disagree, with one army you can save money on arms, buy bigger and better weapons and have one training method and command structure.
 
Peter King said:
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

1, British.

2, Would you want to be in battle with your flank held by an Italian division?
 
Tim the plumber said:
1, British.

2, Would you want to be in battle with your flank held by an Italian division?
Click to expand...

1. No, pretty sure I mean English because it is London that such decisions are made. Sure, there are Scottish and Welsh in Westminster but the power lies with the English parties and where Scots and Welsh might be more willing to deal with the big evil mainland, I think the English parties would put a stop to that.

So yes, it is the British army but the ones who decide what the UK does and does not do are the English political parties.

2. if the training method is exactly the same as in other countries and the leadership is in the hands of 1 commander, then yes, why not.
 
Peter King said:
1. No, pretty sure I mean English because it is London that such decisions are made. Sure, there are Scottish and Welsh in Westminster but the power lies with the English parties and where Scots and Welsh might be more willing to deal with the big evil mainland, I think the English parties would put a stop to that.

So yes, it is the British army but the ones who decide what the UK does and does not do are the English political parties.

2. if the training method is exactly the same as in other countries and the leadership is in the hands of 1 commander, then yes, why not.
Click to expand...

The rise of regonal parties is either support for your position or a demonstration that the regions have more influence than they should have.

And it takes more than just the training within the army to make a soldier. Look at the way football thugs work. British ones beat all the Europeans even when the Scotts fight against the English. It's still the small number of Scotts thugs which cause the problem for the English thugs.
 
It's interesting to me that this thread comes out on the weekend of the 70th anniversary celebrations of the allied forces, led by the Canadian military, liberation of the Netherlands from Nazi occupation. Also ironic that it speaks to the Netherlands and Germany being the main forces behind the idea of a European army. There are still many alive in the Netherlands who remember what it was like living under Germany military force - I suppose younger generations have no need to be wary.

From my perspective, countries agreeing to man and fund a European army would be the equivalent of Canada agreeing to man and fund a United Nations army. Not a good idea, in my view.
 
CanadaJohn said:
It's interesting to me that this thread comes out on the weekend of the 70th anniversary celebrations of the allied forces, led by the Canadian military, liberation of the Netherlands from Nazi occupation. Also ironic that it speaks to the Netherlands and Germany being the main forces behind the idea of a European army. There are still many alive in the Netherlands who remember what it was like living under Germany military force - I suppose younger generations have no need to be wary.

From my perspective, countries agreeing to man and fund a European army would be the equivalent of Canada agreeing to man and fund a United Nations army. Not a good idea, in my view.
Click to expand...

Well, it has been 70 years and Germany is our best ally in Europe right here and now and I doubt that will ever change again (unless it is marginally going in the positive direction that is).

The countries I mention already have a united parliament and government, which makes it very different than a United Nations army, so not a comparable IMHO.
 
Peter King said:
Well, it has been 70 years and Germany is our best ally in Europe right here and now and I doubt that will ever change again (unless it is marginally going in the positive direction that is).

The countries I mention already have a united parliament and government, which makes it very different than a United Nations army, so not a comparable IMHO.
Click to expand...

Fair enough - I don't see it happening, but you're closer to the action.
 
Peter King said:
I disagree, with one army you can save money on arms, buy bigger and better weapons and have one training method and command structure.
Click to expand...

Quite the contrary. It would be a complete waste of money, without any real practical use, as the Eurocorps has demonstrated over the last decades.
Armies need to remain under the control of the sovereign states of which they are an emanation.
Obviously it would be useful in a European context to increase joint purchases, standardization of equipment and training, etc. This has been happening for many decades. It's good and useful, but doesn't produce miracles.
 
Peter King said:
I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

Given the disproportionate contribution of said countries to UN peacekeeping efforts (which do a hell of a lot more good then adventurist **** ups like Iraq) I'ld say that these countries have the right idea. I would also worry about said army forcing its will on member states.
 
Peter King said:
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

The Frech will never agree to it. They developed their own military forces and doctrine separate from Europe, and partly because of the Germans. Plus if this unified military were created how would they reconcile seniority among the officers? And what if the other European countries decide thy don't like Frances nuclear weapons program?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
-- And what if the other European countries decide thy don't like Frances nuclear weapons program?
Click to expand...

The other countries already have access to US nuclear weapons through the nuclear sharing program in NATO where they are required to equip their craft to be able to deliver nuclear weapons in a major war. However, you have a point, a lot of very left leaning anti-nuclear groups could ally together and force their will on the defence capabilities of the EU - much in the same way the SNP and supporters of their position would like to force a non-nuclear position on the UK.

5th columns unite I suppose, many of these groups received support from the old USSR or their views were very much liked in the Kremlin.
 
Peter King said:
Ursula von der Leyen, the German secretary of defense and her Dutch counterpart, Jeanine Hennis-Plaschaert want to further work together when it comes to the German and Dutch armed forces and in due course they want to work towards the creation of a European Army.

But they are realistic and they think this will still take many years if not decades before everyone is on the same page as the Netherlands and Germany but it is strange that it takes 2 female secretaries of defense to further military cooperation between Nato allies.

I hope that indeed there will be a European army with countries like Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Finland, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Sweden and Czech republic. Safe and stable European countries which could work well together. In a perfect world that army would also include the French and the English but I think those 2 countries are not really willing to join such a EU army.

But for now, good work ladies in paving the way for a new and strong army so that the US will not have to go it (mostly) alone in the future.
Click to expand...

Since I support this concept, I won't comment in any way as to what has already been done, and is being done to make this a reality. All one needs to do is dig a little bit in the right direction, and you will see they are already practicing the command and control of such a group, with elements representing the majority of the EU, including Ireland. There are even elements that are not part of the EU. They even have a video of one such exercise on Youtube.
 
LeoVlaming said:
Quite the contrary. It would be a complete waste of money, without any real practical use, as the Eurocorps has demonstrated over the last decades.
Click to expand...

LOL the Eurocorps was/is nothing more than political grandstanding by two countries that has since expanded. It has 6000 troops for **** sake. It is a symbol, not an actual "fighting force".

Armies need to remain under the control of the sovereign states of which they are an emanation.
Click to expand...

Since when? Most European countries have had their military run from Washington for 60 years thanks to NATO.
 
PeteEU said:
LOL the Eurocorps was/is nothing more than political grandstanding by two countries that has since expanded. It has 6000 troops for **** sake. It is a symbol, not an actual "fighting force".
Click to expand...

Indeed and this illustrates why the concept of a "European Army" is complete nonsense.
 
PeteEU said:
Since when? Most European countries have had their military run from Washington for 60 years thanks to NATO.
Click to expand...

No, NATO is an alliance. The countries retain the sovereign control over their militaries. This is fundamentally different from creating a supranational army.
 
LeoVlaming said:
Indeed and this illustrates why the concept of a "European Army" is complete nonsense.
Click to expand...

No, it illustrates the willingness of some nations to create such an army but that the political realities are that NATO is still around pulling the political strings in their favour.

Remember the original Eurocorp was France and Germany.. this pissed off the UK and US big time and caused an all mighty row in NATO. Since then due to external factors, the real politics of Europe has taken priority over political grandstanding and pushing away from American domination... well up to a point of course...
 
PeteEU said:
No, it illustrates the willingness of some nations to create such an army but that the political realities are that NATO is still around pulling the political strings in their favour.

Remember the original Eurocorp was France and Germany.. this pissed off the UK and US big time and caused an all mighty row in NATO. Since then due to external factors, the real politics of Europe has taken priority over political grandstanding and pushing away from American domination... well up to a point of course...
Click to expand...

Try reading a few less fairy tales.
 
LeoVlaming said:
No, NATO is an alliance. The countries retain the sovereign control over their militaries.
Click to expand...

Yea keep believing that. No country in NATO has full sovereign control over their militarise and never have.

This is fundamentally different from creating a supranational army.
Click to expand...

Well that is not on the table... what is on the table and has been for a while, is creating an European alternative to NATO.. by Europeans and for Europeans. Basically the whole thing boils down to getting rid of the American military control which NATO has. For a long time the UK has been the main blocker of such a change.
 
PeteEU said:
Yea keep believing that. No country in NATO has full sovereign control over their militarise and never have.
Click to expand...

That is simply nonsense. Natioonal governments decide on military budgets, on weapons procurement, on when and where troops are used. You are simply not looking at things rationally.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom