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Britain On Edge Of Full-Blown Authoritarianism

PoS said:
Its not just my opinion, my British colleagues have told me the same thing (some of them accept it and some are critical of it) and with the NSA's chief whistleblower himself stating that spy agencies in Britain are more intrusive than their counterparts in the US, it pretty much backs my views of it. Im not out here to condemn any country, if thats what the citizens want then its not for me to decide if its good or bad for them.
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Your British colleagues may be wrong. Just as you or I may be wrong about our own countries.

I have been to the USA a few times. Probably not as many times as you've been to my country, as I'm still pretty young, and I don't claim to be an expert. I have always felt I have had to watch my Ps and Qs there, and it starts right when you get to Immigration (although I would say Canada's Immigration is even more aggressive than yours) but I know that my experience is just my experience and that what I feel may not reflect reality.

That's why I was hoping for some actual reasons to back up your workmates' opinions that you seem to just accept.
 
TeleKat said:
This is some scary ****. Thoughts?

BBC News - Theresa May: British values will prevail over extremists
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To add some context. May gave this speech to her party faithful, wider members and party supporters. As history will show, much is said, not so much is delivered. In the wider context, many in the country are less than sympathetic and have grown weary and tired of seeing radical hate preachers spew hate filled, anti democratic sermons to a very small minority of followers. The past decade has seen the likes of Choundary et al, gain a sizeable amount of media coverage. Many subsequent events (the murder of Lee Rigby) has left the public, on the whole, wanting action.

"The change of tone speaks volumes. The 2005 bombings and the murder of Lee Rigby last year could not plausibly be blamed on whole communities. In contrast, the departure of hundreds of young Muslims to fight for Isis raises questions about community loyalty. The imams have accused the jihadis of ‘betraying’ Britain because they don’t want the accusation flung back at them" [...]

"The Guardian reported last week that British extremists were among ‘the most vicious and vociferous fighters’ in the ranks of Isis. But this we knew. For UK Muslims, the fact that James Foley’s executioner spoke with a London accent was a public relations disaster. It wasn’t great for Britain, either, which is now routinely accused by Americans of harbouring an enemy within" [...]

Is Britain hardening its heart against Muslims? » The Spectator

Hence, the narrative goes 'a curtailing of hate filled preachers' liberty to stir and incite hatred, is a price worth paying. And if the time ever came of mass arbitrary arrests, then objection will be vindicated. As it stands, English tolerance and mainstream public opinion, has reached its peak.

Paul
 
Samantha Brown said:
Your British colleagues may be wrong. Just as you or I may be wrong about our own countries. I have been to the USA a few times. Probably not as many times as you've been to my country, as I'm still pretty young, and I don't claim to be an expert. I have always felt I have had to watch my Ps and Qs there, and it starts right when you get to Immigration (although I would say Canada's Immigration is even more aggressive than yours) but I know that my experience is just my experience and that what I feel may not reflect reality. That's why I was hoping for some actual reasons to back up your workmates' opinions that you seem to just accept.
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Ever heard of the RIPA act? One of my colleagues was forced to show his passkeys the last time he was in Heathrow, no reason was given and none was required. He was threatened with prosecution and jail time if he refused. He complied and was let go a few hours later. Again, no explanation or apology or anything.
 
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gunner said:
If its came from you, your mates-- and Snowden, hell, its got to be true! :lol:

Paul
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I'll take their professional opinions and experience over yours anytime, boy.
 
PoS said:
Ever heard of the RIPA act? One of my colleagues was forced to show his passkeys the last time he was in Heathrow, no reason was given and none was required. He was threatened with prosecution and jail time if he refused. He complied and was let go a few hours later. Again, no explanation or apology or anything.
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I have heard of it, yes.

But I was hoping for a comparison. Do you have draconian laws in the USA?
 
PoS said:
Ever heard of the RIPA act? One of my colleagues was forced to show his passkeys the last time he was in Heathrow, no reason was given and none was required. He was threatened with prosecution and jail time if he refused. He complied and was let go a few hours later. Again, no explanation or apology or anything.
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Well, that seems totally against procedure there, boy.

Explained: The RIP Act | Global | The Guardian

Paul
 
TeleKat said:
This is some scary ****. Thoughts?

BBC News - Theresa May: British values will prevail over extremists
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I am not sure it is going to be a authoritarian state in the UK. First you have the power to address this issue in both UK courts and EU courts. And secondly, by the time that has been decided there will have been new elections in which the UK populace has the chance to send the Tories packing. If they do not do that then they must agree with such measures to be taken.
 
TeleKat said:
I'm not advocating that non-libertarians lose their right to free speech. Quite the opposite, actually, as you can see.



They're speaking of anybody the UK government decides is "extremist."



Yes it should. You don't have the right to decide what ideas are or are not acceptable. Nor do you, or anyone else for that matter, have the right to shut down opposition to your "values" simply because you don't like them or think they are extreme. If a protest is nonviolent in nature there is absolutely no reason to shut it down. Period. End of story.
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Well, if the government can indeed arbitrarily decide what is "extremist" and can accordingly be banned, I agree -- that would be a threat for freedom and a large step towards authoritarianism.

But I disagree that every kind of speech must be tolerated. In these regards, I agree with a351. But a restriction of speech must never be arbitrary or in the hands of an unchecked executive. There must be a clear-cut processus and clearly defined rules if and when speech can be restricted, and these rules itself must be debated and changeable.

Freedom of speech is very important, but it only works when all participants of a debate agree on a certain minimum framework: That they'll not use violence against those who disagree, aka support for the constitutional freedoms. People who speak out against the basic rights defined in the constitution -- such as freedom of speech -- are expressing their intent of violating the freedom of everybody else. They're not playing by the rules everybody has to agree on to make a debate and free political process work, and thus are abusing their freedom of speech with their anti-constitutional claims and calls for violence. I don't think that should be tolerated, and I don't see there is virtue in tolerance for such intolerance.

I like how it's done in Germany: Certain parties and organizations can be banned when they are both anti-constitutional AND violent. But it's not up to the executive or legislative to issue any such ban, it's up to independent courts. The accusation has to prove their claims, and parties sued with the goal of a ban can legally defend themselves on court. If they're falsely accused, they can easily show the accusations are false. So far, several neo-Nazi and islamist groups have been banned in (West-)Germany, as well as the revolutionary communist party (in the 50s).
 
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PoS said:
Ever heard of the RIPA act? One of my colleagues was forced to show his passkeys the last time he was in Heathrow, no reason was given and none was required. He was threatened with prosecution and jail time if he refused. He complied and was let go a few hours later. Again, no explanation or apology or anything.
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Have you heard of the NDAA? Patriot Act?
 
TeleKat said:
Have you heard of the NDAA? Patriot Act?
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He forgets a lot.. like the fact that to travel to the US you have to ask for permission to go to the US from Homeland Security and as soon as you do that, your personal information (banking and so on) is automatically given to the US authorities without your permission. If you are lucky enough to not be on the no fly list, then when you do get to the US, the first thing that happens is that you get fingerprinted..
 
PeteEU said:
He forgets a lot.. like the fact that to travel to the US you have to ask for permission to go to the US from Homeland Security and as soon as you do that, your personal information (banking and so on) is automatically given to the US authorities without your permission. If you are lucky enough to not be on the no fly list, then when you do get to the US, the first thing that happens is that you get fingerprinted..
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Until sanity returns, travel to the US is off the cards for me. I've been through that whole rigmarole and frankly, why vacation in a country that doesn't appear to want you there? I'd say the same to the UK if I wasn't British. There are 190+ other countries in the world that seem more welcoming than those two; I'll go to one of them instead.

As a matter of interest, to the people on this thread: which other countries would you avoid visiting? My list is: N. Korea; Russia; Ukraine; W. Africa (the Ebola-affected ones at least); Iran; Syria; Iraq; Saudi; Yemen; Somalia; Eritrea; Nigeria; DR Congo; Egypt and...er, that's about it. I'd probably avoid Scandinavia and Japan too, 'cos I'm a pauper; and Switzerland because I've spent time there and that was quite enough for one lifetime!
 
Andalublue said:
Until sanity returns, travel to the US is off the cards for me. I've been through that whole rigmarole and frankly, why vacation in a country that doesn't appear to want you there? I'd say the same to the UK if I wasn't British. There are 190+ other countries in the world that seem more welcoming than those two; I'll go to one of them instead.

As a matter of interest, to the people on this thread: which other countries would you avoid visiting? My list is: N. Korea; Russia; Ukraine; W. Africa (the Ebola-affected ones at least); Iran; Syria; Iraq; Saudi; Yemen; Somalia; Eritrea; Nigeria; DR Congo; Egypt and...er, that's about it. I'd probably avoid Scandinavia and Japan too, 'cos I'm a pauper; and Switzerland because I've spent time there and that was quite enough for one lifetime!
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Add South Korea to the list. I've always said that it is one of the most depressing places on Earth.
 
Finally a rational human being is speaking.Respecting radical Islamists isn't different from respecting mentally ill people.

1385769766-islamists-protest-in-london-against-angolas-alleged-ban-on-islam_3375781.webp
 
Proud South Korean said:
Add South Korea to the list. I've always said that it is one of the most depressing places on Earth.
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Really? Why? I've no clear idea of what SK might be like, but I'd love to see the valley and lake where they shot Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter...and Spring was filmed. That looks lovely!
 
Andalublue said:
Until sanity returns, travel to the US is off the cards for me. I've been through that whole rigmarole and frankly, why vacation in a country that doesn't appear to want you there? I'd say the same to the UK if I wasn't British. There are 190+ other countries in the world that seem more welcoming than those two; I'll go to one of them instead.

As a matter of interest, to the people on this thread: which other countries would you avoid visiting? My list is: N. Korea; Russia; Ukraine; W. Africa (the Ebola-affected ones at least); Iran; Syria; Iraq; Saudi; Yemen; Somalia; Eritrea; Nigeria; DR Congo; Egypt and...er, that's about it. I'd probably avoid Scandinavia and Japan too, 'cos I'm a pauper; and Switzerland because I've spent time there and that was quite enough for one lifetime!
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What issues do non UK citizens have when entering the UK ?

Paul
 
gunner said:
What issues do non UK citizens have when entering the UK ?

Paul
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Queues, aggressive officials, intrusive questions, and before you even get to the border, ridiculously inefficient visa process, infernally eternal waits for visa processing, and aggressive, unreasonable visa interviews. Ask anyone, especially non-EU, would-be holiday-makers what their experience of British bureaucracy is; they'll tell you.
 
Andalublue said:
Really? Why? I've no clear idea of what SK might be like, but I'd love to see the valley and lake where they shot Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter...and Spring was filmed. That looks lovely!
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It is a lovely place.. was there years ago.
 
Andalublue said:
Queues,
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Point me to an airport that is 'Queless', and i'll holiday there tomorow:lol:

aggressive officials
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Charm school is not part of their functions.

intrusive questions,
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As it should be. They are not interested in small talk.

and before you even get to the border, ridiculously inefficient visa process, infernally eternal waits for visa processing, and aggressive, unreasonable visa interviews.
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Any links for unnecessary visa interviews etc.?

Ask anyone, especially non-EU, would-be holiday-makers what their experience of British bureaucracy is; they'll tell you.
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It doesn't seem to stop people coming. It's official: London is the most popular destination for tourists in the world - London - News - London Evening Standard

And our Airports rank as World's busiest airports by international passenger traffic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so, again people are obviously happy to come :)

Paul
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gunner said:
Andalublue said:
Point me to an airport that is 'Queless', and i'll holiday there tomorow:lol:
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Welcome to Almería Mr Gunner. S'funny, the British always, always assume that queuing is a universal activity and totally unavoidable, and it isn't. I've been in about 7 different airports in the past year and have had ridiculous queueing in just two - the two British ones, natch.

Charm school is not part of their functions.
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Which is probably why Britain lags behind its natural competitors in attracting international visitors. Fewer tourists than Germany??? I wonder why.

As it should be. They are not interested in small talk.
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Why would the occupation of one's parents and siblings be a relevant question? Intrusive ≠ relevant, more likely the opposite.

Any links for unnecessary visa interviews etc.?
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Yup.
Passport official suspended over 'interrogation' of gay applicant | World news | The Guardian

It doesn't seem to stop people coming. It's official: London is the most popular destination for tourists in the world - London - News - London Evening Standard
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And yet the UK gets fewer visitors than France, Spain, Italy, the US, Turkey, China and Germany.

And our Airports rank as World's busiest airports by international passenger traffic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so, again people are obviously happy to come :)
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Busiest ≠ happiest or most appreciated. And, of course, you realise that busy airports might have more to do with the appeal of leaving the country than arriving in it, don't you? :mrgreen:
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Andalublue said:
Anyone know what Angola's done to invoke the ire of bearded men in Parkas?
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It banned the wearing of Parkas by bearded protesters :mrgreen:
 
Andalublue said:
Anyone know what Angola's done to invoke the ire of bearded men in Parkas?
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I couldn't upload another pic.But you can see other protests (shariah4uk,shariah4belgium etc.)on the internet it's insane.In most cases those protests are not peaceful.
 
Andalublue said:
Anyone know what Angola's done to invoke the ire of bearded men in Parkas?
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The Angolan govt ordered the closure and in some cases, destruction of mosques it said hadn't been built under licence. This was distorted into a claim Angola had banned Islam and destroyed all mosques.

The Angolan government has a rule that a religion must have 100,000 members to be recognised officially and there are by account 90,000 muslims so islam is not a recognised religion and muslims cannot build schools or places of worship.

One of the biggest international critics of Angola's policy towards Islam is the US State Department.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
One of the biggest international critics of Angola's policy towards Islam is the US State Department.
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Sounds to me like it's not an anti-Islam policy, but a general restriction on the activities of minority religions. I'm not saying I'm in favour of it, but I suspect Islam isn't the only religion affected.
 
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