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Europe finaly putting pressure on Russia

The German

The German

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Oh look, the EU has a spine. Too bad our timing is off. We had from March to take a stance, so an entire spring and summer, and now that winter is coming we're deciding that yep, now is the time to poke the bear. Everyone knows that picking on Russia during the winter is a brilliant idea. Works every time.

//Don't get me wrong, I am terribly pleased that the EU is actually taking this seriously and I hope it will lead to a quick resolution of this, but I am disappointed in the track record.
 
Rainman05 said:
Oh look, the EU has a spine. Too bad our timing is off. We had from March to take a stance, so an entire spring and summer, and now that winter is coming we're deciding that yep, now is the time to poke the bear. Everyone knows that picking on Russia during the winter is a brilliant idea. Works every time.

//Don't get me wrong, I am terribly pleased that the EU is actually taking this seriously and I hope it will lead to a quick resolution of this, but I am disappointed in the track record.
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Well we are not exactly marching on moscow are we?
 
The German said:
Nato announced that it will be holding a manover in Western Ukraine (probably with Nato troops intended to remain in Western Ukraine)

Moskau nennt Nato-Militärmanöver in Westukraine "Provokation" - SPIEGEL ONLINE

And France announced that it will not be delivering Mistral amphibious warships to Russia:

Frankreich stoppt umstrittene Kriegsschiff-Lieferung an Moskau - SPIEGEL ONLINE

I hope this means that we are finaly showing teeth in Europe.
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Yes, and not a moment too soon either.

Now, about those natural gas pipelines... will they be a problem or not?
 
The German said:
Well we are not exactly marching on moscow are we?
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Hopefully we'll not have to. But the timing is rather poor, you can't disagree to this.
 
MrFirst said:
Highly likely. For Rainman and his country.
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LoL. Yeah right.

MrFirst said:
Rainman, you're surprising me. You've gained strategic thinking.
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Dude, your country can't afford to cut the gas to europe. Russia' economy is tanking, with a gaping hole in the budget of 200bil euros that it gets from the EU should the gas be cut, your govt will default by the new year.

I'm just poking a bit of fun at the expense of history and making condescending remarks at the lack of speed in the EU decision making.
 
One thing worries me. Just today Poroshenko declared ceasefire. Putin suported him, and put new plan on a table. 7 points - withdrawal of troops, stop fire, international observers and so on. And exactly today NATO pushes new anti-Russian measures. Coincidence?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Yes, and not a moment too soon either.

Now, about those natural gas pipelines... will they be a problem or not?
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Yeah they will be.

Estimates show that Germany has enought gas saved for 5 months in storage.

We will be looking for an alternative source for gas.

Which either means the USA or those ****ing Arabs in Quatar.
 
MrFirst said:
One thing worries me. Just today Poroshenko declared ceasefire. Putin suported him, and put new plan on a table. 7 points - withdrawal of troops, stop fire, international observers and so on. And exactly today NATO pushes new anti-Russian measures. Coincidence?
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It`s because you lot have lost all credibility that you might have had at one point.

Nobody trusts you anymore. In fact, I guess alot of Europe outright hates you right now.
 
Rainman05 said:
Dude, your country can't afford to cut the gas to europe. Russia' economy is tanking, with a gaping hole in the budget of 200bil euros that it gets from the EU should the gas be cut, your govt will default by the new year.
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Russia is not going to cut off gas supplies to Europe. Who cuts off his own money, except for EU? Nobody. But Ukraine may block gas transit, that happened in 2008 - gas stream was stopped for a week or two. Germany is safe, they have North Stream through Baltic sea. Other countries like Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, partly Austria depend on gas pipe-line, of tha cut-off happens at winter frost there may be bad consequences.
 
The German said:
It`s because you lot have lost all credibility that you might have had at one point.

Nobody trusts you anymore. In fact, I guess alot of Europe outright hates you right now.
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No, I think it's because NATO doesn't want peace, it's not their goal at the situation. Obama makes every effort to divide Russia and Europe. There is some vital importance for the USA to not let Europe to increase economic and political ties with Russia.
 
MrFirst said:
No, I think it's because NATO doesn't want peace, it's not their goal at the situation. Obama makes every effort to divide Russia and Europe. There is some vital importance for the USA to not let Europe to increase economic and political ties with Russia.
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Well, Putin is doing a good job at dividing Europe and Russia too.

European money is what keeps Russia a float, you say only the EU cuts in it's own money supply but Russia is doing a fine job itself. Russia is doing exactly what the US wants it to, threatening Europe indirectly and showing to be to untrustworty for a key energy supplier. NATO closes its ranks and Russia loses custommers and business partners in the long run.

Very cunning, very powerful and very smart to say the least.
 
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MrFirst said:
No, I think it's because NATO doesn't want peace, it's not their goal at the situation.
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Is that supposed to be some sort of bad joke?! Politics in Europe for the past 20 years has been about sustaining peace and democracy in Europe.

And Nato was founded on the principles of keeping fascism and you lot out of Europe and North Amerika.
Obama makes every effort to divide Russia and Europe.
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What?! Is there even the slightest bit of evidence for that in any possible way?

If anyone is trying to divide Europe it is you lot.

Blackmailing European countries, threatening European countries and outright making advances toards them to threaten others.

There is some vital importance for the USA to not let Europe to increase economic and political ties with Russia.
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Europes releation with the US is based on shared values of democracy.

You dont even have these values to share with.

Europes releation with you lot is based on 50 years of soviet troops crushing and supressing the peoples of eastern Europe, and you lot are even proud of that history.
 
MrFirst said:
Russia is not going to cut off gas supplies to Europe. Who cuts off his own money, except for EU? Nobody. But Ukraine may block gas transit, that happened in 2008 - gas stream was stopped for a week or two. Germany is safe, they have North Stream through Baltic sea. Other countries like Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, partly Austria depend on gas pipe-line, of tha cut-off happens at winter frost there may be bad consequences.
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Why would Ukraine block the transit? It wants to get on good terms with the EU, blackmail won't get them there.
 
Rainman05 said:
Why would Ukraine block the transit? It wants to get on good terms with the EU, blackmail won't get them there.
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Why did they do that in 2008? They don't pay for gas, hence they don't have gas. In winter they'll have to warm up their houses. Where will they get tha gas? Yes, they'll take that gas from the pipe-line which belongs to Europe, to Romania. They simply will have no choice. But don't care, Germany has North Stream which goes around Europe and Ukraine. The Germans will not get cold, and Russia will not loose its money.
 
David_H said:
European money is what keeps Russia a float, you say only the EU cuts in it's own money supply but Russia is doing a fine job itself.
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How?

David_H said:
Russia is doing exactly what the US wants it to, threatening Europe indirectly and showing to be to untrustworty for a key energy supplier. NATO closes its ranks and Russia loses custommers and business partners in the long run.
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Maybe I missed something, but I don't know how Russia is threatening Europe.
 
MrFirst said:
How?
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By lying and trying to trick Europe.


MrFirst said:
Maybe I missed something, but I don't know how Russia is threatening Europe.
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Putin is using 1980's style maffia threats by saying things like "our neighbours should know we have a very big nuclear arsenal" and "some people may think Russia has old rust for military equipment but those days are over". He does by sending a bomber on a probing mission to the Netherlands after MH17 was shot down. etc. etc.

It doesn't really impress anyone, it only makes things worse for Russia. After this Ukraine crisis the world will go on, we will still be Russia's neighbours and we will still be the biggest natural gas market available. I don't think Russia will be trusted with being our main energy supplier anymore and I'm very sure NATO will strengthen it's eastern European borders after this.

It was a very good opertunity for Russia to really step it's game up in befriending Europe and it's investors and showing Europe it wanted to work together for a better future for both but instead it played the game like anyone trying to break up Europe and Russia would like it to.
 
Rainman05 said:
Dude, your country can't afford to cut the gas to europe. Russia' economy is tanking, with a gaping hole in the budget of 200bil euros that it gets from the EU should the gas be cut, your govt will default by the new year.
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That's half their foreign reserves so, even if that were true (it is not), that would be manageable for the few months it would take for most of Europe to collapse from lack of natural gas, especially in the winter. You just can't get around the reality that Europe needs hard resources like natural gas and that these are not in plentiful supply. Finland and Greece have already been at the breaking point over the sanctions and retaliation. Seeing as they depend significantly on Russian energy, they are not likely to be holding the line for too long. You just plain don't understand exactly how much power supplier countries have over those consuming their natural resources.
 
Hopefully, the NATO summit will finally mark a turning point.

I hate to say it, but the only people inside NATO who have understood what we're dealing here are the Poles and the Baltics so far. Russia is challenging us, has basically declared war on the West. Unless we react in the hardest possible way, Russia will use any opportunity it can get to weaken us.

It's time to forget all previous treaties with Russia (as Russia is pissing on them anyway), to massively rearm, to economically isolate Russia with all means possible and to fully roll back Russia. I won't feel we're doing enough until I hear Russia's spine cracking.
 
The German said:
Yeah they will be.

Estimates show that Germany has enought gas saved for 5 months in storage.

We will be looking for an alternative source for gas.

Which either means the USA or those ****ing Arabs in Quatar.
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How would the USA ship gas economically to Europe? I think gas is a strong weapon in the Russian arsenal in this little financial war.
 
EU had already lost because it got blinded believing it can make Ukraine part of EU.
 
I wonder... why can't NATO allow "volunteers" to travel to Ukraine to fight for Kiev?

After all, Russia could do that as well. All the many Russian fighters in east Ukraine were, of course, not sent by Moscow, but volunteers. Maybe NATO should allow the same to happen. Send volunteers. I'm sure some of them might even bring some equipment. ;)
 
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