What I'm concerned about here is the problem that the rightrope walk between justified criticism and reactions on problematic behavior by Muslim immigrants on one side, and respect for our very Western values we claim to uphold and that distinguish us from authoritarians such as islamists, is a difficult one. One that might overextend the capacity of many people.
After all, freedom of religion is a fundamental right in Western countries and without it, no country is free. And that includes freedom of religion for Muslims. Also, there is a tension between judging people individually and collectively along ethnic or religious lines, especially as collective identities have strong effect on individuals.
At any rate, I reject broad statements such as "the Muslims", as this thread should have shown. The religion of Islam alone cannot explain anything here. There are many other factors at work, such as local traditions (of the regions where the respective people came from), national identities and traditions (as was pointed out, there are strong differences between Turkish, Arab or Persians), and, certainly not least social and economic factors regarding the integration of immigrants. There different factors interact and it's a matter of diligent research to identify the respective weight and mutual interactions between the different factors.
My guess is that religion is vastly overrated as explaining factor. Even for many Muslims, it just serves as an excuse, a finaly straw to give their discontentment with totally different matters a shape.
Certainly broad-brushing "the Muslims" and claims along the lines of "let's throw these towelhead sandniggers out already" (even when they are more politely and intellectually formulated) are certainly not going to help the matter in the slightest, and going down that path can only result in horrible crimes, as we would sacrifice the very basis of who we are as Westeners.
And before anybody jumps at me, no, that doesn't mean nothing should be done. On the contrary, the existing problems must be addressed as they deserve.
So here's the problem with this comment. I agree with most things except that the fact that religion is overrated as an explaining factor.
It is very foreign for europeans, and yes, even eastern europeans who tend to be more religious, to riot over religious matters. Protests, sure. There are protests for people who are motivated religiously but they rarely turn violent. Even those protests by the catholics in France when the gay marriage was adopted wasn't really appreciated. Most french people, who are majority catholic, looked down on those who decided to take the streets in protest, not riot, protest. Because it had more to do with politics, or rather, a merger of political and religious interests rather than pure religious muscle being exercised. That's why aside from the protest of the law there were discussions like "why is the govt being bothered with this issue rather than the economic one?" and that is a legitimate claim because france already had some pact that pretty much fulfilled all the roles of marriage for same sex couples. And ofc, the administration was having weekly scandals. But even if you just take the full religious matter, you still had protests, which are legitimate and democratic, not riots.
I don't think that when the islamists say that they love death more than we love life, that they are lying. And again, you don't see this kind of talk from turks in europe, just from muslims from elsewhere.
Let me put it to you this way. If christians (of any denominations )would riot everytime a law was passed that somehow conflicted with the Church, wouldn't you be disgusted by that? Wouldn't you think that it's harmful? Here's a more correct example because this protest of the muslims was triggered by the israeli invasion of gaza. If when we heard that coptic christians were attacked and murdered in Syria and Egypt (during Morsi), christians, not all, just sufficiently many to be a scary group, would riot in the streets of all major cities demanding that the EU does something... would you stand by it and tolerate this behavior? I would consider my kinsmen as savages.
Religion doesn't work in governing a modern country. It cannot work. Modern countries administration and thinking must be fluid, like water. It must be quick to adapt and with ever adaptation, it must take in all that is new and technologically sound and put safeguards to protect civil rights.
Tolerance comes hard. It's not an easy thing to do on a societal level. And it's easy to tear down when you try to be tolerant and are facing intolerance. One by one, individuals tolerance tether is broken because of all the things that shoved down their throat and given nothing in return and that number will grow and they'll turn to the people who promise them that they won't have to take it for long. And as we are speaking about france now, the french have been told that they have to tolerate a lot and when someone fails to tolerate everything that is told of them, they're reprimanded. They're pushed aside. They're ridiculed. Best case, they're ignored but most often, they're socially persecuted if not legally so. Just for speaking their minds. At some point, this becomes the norm and it won't be pretty.
The french turned their christmas holidays into winter holidays. Their easter holidays into spring holidays. They gave state territory and privileges to mosques. They allowed for halal meat. The muslim immigrants in france are overwhelmingly unemployed and unemployable and they're eating away the social benefits. They're not the only ones but in cities like Marseille there is a real problem with this. Crime has gone up. Drug use has gone up. There is more money shoved into programs for immigrants to help them integrate and they fail. 70%-80% of inmates are muslims. They also have problems with the gypsies. They also have problems with eastern europeans and mainly here romanians (yes, even ethnic romanians, I will never defend those of my countrymen who are ignorant and stupid and go abroad and shame us all). And I could go on and on and on with problems about the economy, the fact that maybe the french way of life has to change and put 40h workdays again, etc. I could go on about the fustrations coming from the eurozone, I could go on about the fustration regarding global warming, etc. And all these things the french are told that they must tolerate. How much is too much? And if you snap, if you speak your mind on any of these issues, you better be careful and speak the right thing or else, you're gonna get shafted.
This is not the way forward. I don't know what way this is but it sure as hell won't lead us to the world of tomorrow with fancy cities and fancy public transport and less crime and better life for all. You know, Star Trek life or what you see in those pictures from the 70s and 80s from america. This is not the way to that.
Too many people died in europe for freedom and free speech and to have a democratic society and the prosperity that inevitably comes with this. Too much hard work has been done go even beyond this and attempt to remove the sources of conflict by forming the EU. And it's being pissed away. And I don't like that. And I identified in my OP and reinforced here, an item that contributes to that pissing away. It's not the only one, it may not even be the biggest challenge, but it sure as **** is the most taboo one.
