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Norway gets tough on mass murder

Higgins86 said:
well I mean it is in Europe but there legal system doesnt speak for the whole of Europe, just grinds my gears I guess.
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Well I get it actually... like if someone from Europe thought all the USA was like New York, it would make steam come out of my ears... :)
 
Goshin said:
Well I get it actually... like if someone from Europe thought all the USA was like New York, it would make steam come out of my ears... :)
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yeh exactly. I have friends back home who say to me " wow Chris how can you live in America dont they all rednecks who love country music etc" So I explain to them that America is so large and diverse that people in New England have nothing in common with people in Alabama etc
 
Higgins86 said:
yeh exactly. I have friends back home who say to me " wow Chris how can you live in America dont they all rednecks who love country music etc" So I explain to them that America is so large and diverse that people in New England have nothing in common with people in Alabama etc
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Yes it is almost like 50 seperate countries with 8 distinct cultures and dialects.
 
Goshin said:
Yes it is almost like 50 seperate countries with 8 distinct cultures and dialects.
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lol its funny I live right on the border of Maine, NH and Mass and they are all so different ( especially when driving, Massholes....)
 
Higgins86 said:
lol its funny I live right on the border of Maine, NH and Mass and they are all so different ( especially when driving, Massholes....)
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Right on the border of Maine, NH and Mass? Holy cow you like to live on the edge doncha...
 
Goshin said:
Right on the border of Maine, NH and Mass? Holy cow you like to live on the edge doncha...
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lol yep live on the water in portsmouth NH can swim across to the Maine border if I wanted to.
 
Wiggen said:
Manson has been in prison for 42 years. What's your point?
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My point is that its stupid to whine about the theoretical possibility of murderers being let out of prison. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest Brevik would be let out and your speculations are entirely without merit.
 
paris said:
As Far Left as Norway, okay. So, what would you have done to him? And how far right are you?
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I would have sentenced him to death, but knowing how tender your sensibilities are, I would have settled for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. But then you know how barbaric we Americans are towards our mass murderers.
 
rathi said:
My point is that its stupid to whine about the theoretical possibility of murderers being let out of prison. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest Brevik would be let out and your speculations are entirely without merit.
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What isn't speculation is the sentence he received. He can be let out of prison in ten years. There should be absolutely no possibility of this, yet this stupid sentence make it a possibility.
 
Higgins86 said:
you want me to name them all? There have been a lot! High profile ones myra hindley, Rose west, Ian huntley...


point still stands you bunching up the whole of Europe based on this trial in Norway. It would be like me comparing Americas gay laws by looking only at Vermont.
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Well, you used to have the death penalty, too. Hardly relevant today, is it? Or didn't you read the link I posted?
 
Wiggen said:
I would have sentenced him to death, but knowing how tender your sensibilities are, I would have settled for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. But then you know how barbaric we Americans are towards our mass murderers.
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death is easy, let him rot in his cell. You Americans are always looking for the dramatic end.
 
There is zero guarantee he will rot in his cell. There is every chance that 10 years down the road, or 15, it will be shown that he is completely rehabilitated and the European Court will decide that holding him in prison any longer would be cruel and unusual. If the Norwegians don't let him out themselves, of course.

Yeah, us Americans. How stupid we are, thinking mass murderers should get, at the minimum, life without the possiblity of Parole or release of any type. What in the hell is wrong with us?

I repeat - didn't you read the link I posted? Would you like me to post it again?
 
paris said:
As Far Left as Norway, okay. So, what would you have done to him? And how far right are you?
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I'm far right enough to think that if somebody murders 77 people, they've probably forfeited the right to live on the same planet as I do. I know that's a shocking concept to you civilized Europeans.
 
Wiggen said:
There is zero guarantee he will rot in his cell. There is every chance that 10 years down the road, or 15, it will be shown that he is completely rehabilitated and the European Court will decide that holding him in prison any longer would be cruel and unusual. If the Norwegians don't let him out themselves, of course.

Yeah, us Americans. How stupid we are, thinking mass murderers should get, at the minimum, life without the possiblity of Parole or release of any type. What in the hell is wrong with us?

I repeat - didn't you read the link I posted? Would you like me to post it again?
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no I read it but I could also post other links that would show you how unlikely early release would be and how Norways legal system will smack on more years when the 21 years is up. As I said in another thread the public outcry in this case was unheard of in Norway and the chances of him ever being released are very small. No Country has a perfect legal system so lets not pretend that America does I can name you several death sentence cases which were pretty disgraceful. Instead lets trust that Norway has the common sense to sentence its own people and that we shoudl not try an interfere with a legal system we know little about.
 
What I find interesting is that not a single European poster has any issues with this sentence, but rather they all seem to be shocked and even outraged that anybody would find it to be a travesty of justice. Your right - Norway can do whatever the hell they want with their criminals. I'll never live there, I'll never visit there, and what they do won't ever affect me directly. However, I can comment on it when I find things like this that shock the sensibilities of average people.

You're right - nobody's justice system is perfect. But any justice system that establishes a sentence like this for a crime like this is not merely imperfect. It's seriously flawed.

You ignored the link which explained that for the murder of a child in Britain, the average sentence was 16 years. For 'normal murders' (their language, not mine), the sentence was 12 years. And that doesn't bother you? You find that perfectly OK?
 
Wiggen said:
What I find interesting is that not a single European poster has any issues with this sentence, but rather they all seem to be shocked and even outraged that anybody would find it to be a travesty of justice. Your right - Norway can do whatever the hell they want with their criminals. I'll never live there, I'll never visit there, and what they do won't ever affect me directly. However, I can comment on it when I find things like this that shock the sensibilities of average people.

You're right - nobody's justice system is perfect. But any justice system that establishes a sentence like this for a crime like this is not merely imperfect. It's seriously flawed.

You ignored the link which explained that for the murder of a child in Britain, the average sentence was 16 years. For 'normal murders' (their language, not mine), the sentence was 12 years. And that doesn't bother you? You find that perfectly OK?
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once again Norway doesnt speak for Europe and indifferent to what Norway does or does not. As for the British legal system again the laws state sentences such as 16 years for child murder but are often extended by the Home Sec, can you name me a case where a mass killer walked free in the UK after serving a short sentence?
 
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Wiggen said:
What I find interesting is that not a single European poster has any issues with this sentence, but rather they all seem to be shocked and even outraged that anybody would find it to be a travesty of justice --
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The issues were explained on this and the other threads about Breivik, he serves the sentence of 21 years and is subject to "Forvaring." Just like any other murderer who is sentenced, they still have to go before a Parole Board.

I was personally shocked until I read up on Norway's system. It might help you to stop sounding so shrill if you did the same. As for your comments elsewhere about the European Court of Justice - Norway is not part of the EU, the only European body that has say in Norwegian Law is EFTA and that has to do with disputes between member and non-member countries and it also looks at trade.

Anyhow, as others have explained to you is that Brievik isn't going anywhere soon.

Wiggen said:
Tell us about the long prison sentences handed down to murderers in Britain.
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Crown Prosecution Service Guidelines.

The current sentencing framework is contained in the Criminal Justice Act 2003, and requires the sentencing judge to fix a minimum term that has to be served before the Parole Board may consider whether it is safe to release on licence. If an offender is released, recall to prison is possible at any time during the rest of the offender's life.
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The rest of the page details different degrees of classification - it recognises the difference between aggravating factors and mitigating factors. In the case of mitigating factors, Lord Woolf advised in 2004 that a confessing murderer at the lower end of the scale could reduce his or her sentence by early confession so in theory someone at the lighter end could reduce their 12-16 year minimum sentence. However it is still down to a Parole Board to decide whether a convicted felon was ready for release.

Life sentences are still given in the category of exceptionally high seriousness such as that of David Tiley in 2007. He will never come before a Parole Board.

Higgins86 said:
-- are often extended by the Home Sec --
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This stopped with the 2003 Act. The Home Secretary has no say in sentences anymore.
 
I find it amusing how sudden people can be in their judgments after malicious persuasion by sensationalist news articles, news articles that merely seek a visceral reaction from viewers , and subsequently good ratings.

This mass murderer isn't going anywhere. The people of Norway aren't retards, they know that '21 years' would be ridiculous for such a dangerous psychopath, thus that is why their system is set up to allow indefinite detention of the prison for as long as needed. If anything, this adds a degree of flexibility to the justice system, allowing them to release people who are no longer a dangerous threat, but keep in the ones guilty of more heinous acts.

And theoretically, if he ever did acquire freedom into society, there would be those who carry out a more simple form of justice to ensure past retribution and future safety.
 
Wiggen said:
I would have sentenced him to death, but knowing how tender your sensibilities are, I would have settled for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. But then you know how barbaric we Americans are towards our mass murderers.
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I find the death penalty unacceptable. Prison for life sounds to me very harsh too, but at least there is still some opportunity to change.

Wiggen said:
I'm far right enough to think that if somebody murders 77 people, they've probably forfeited the right to live on the same planet as I do. I know that's a shocking concept to you civilized Europeans.
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That's pretty far right to me, indeed; I prefer Norway's system. Because it factors that this murderer may redeem himself in 10 or 20 years. No need to waste another life if there is still a chance. I know that's not very Breivik like.
 
Wiggen said:
There is zero guarantee he will rot in his cell. There is every chance that 10 years down the road, or 15, it will be shown that he is completely rehabilitated and the European Court will decide that holding him in prison any longer would be cruel and unusual.
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Wont happen. Norway and any country has the right to put people in jail under the rule of law of said country.. and guess what the rule of law is forvaring.

If the Norwegians don't let him out themselves, of course.
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They wont.

Yeah, us Americans. How stupid we are, thinking mass murderers should get, at the minimum, life without the possiblity of Parole or release of any type. What in the hell is wrong with us?
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A lot of things, where do we start? :)
 
Infinite Chaos said:
The issues were explained on this and the other threads about Breivik, he serves the sentence of 21 years and is subject to "Forvaring." Just like any other murderer who is sentenced, they still have to go before a Parole Board.

I was personally shocked until I read up on Norway's system. It might help you to stop sounding so shrill if you did the same. As for your comments elsewhere about the European Court of Justice - Norway is not part of the EU, the only European body that has say in Norwegian Law is EFTA and that has to do with disputes between member and non-member countries and it also looks at trade.

Anyhow, as others have explained to you is that Brievik isn't going anywhere soon.



Crown Prosecution Service Guidelines.



The rest of the page details different degrees of classification - it recognises the difference between aggravating factors and mitigating factors. In the case of mitigating factors, Lord Woolf advised in 2004 that a confessing murderer at the lower end of the scale could reduce his or her sentence by early confession so in theory someone at the lighter end could reduce their 12-16 year minimum sentence. However it is still down to a Parole Board to decide whether a convicted felon was ready for release.

Life sentences are still given in the category of exceptionally high seriousness such as that of David Tiley in 2007. He will never come before a Parole Board.



This stopped with the 2003 Act. The Home Secretary has no say in sentences anymore.
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good to know! I still thought the Home Sec had some power when it came to that!
 
EnigmaIncognito said:
And theoretically, if he ever did acquire freedom into society, there would be those who carry out a more simple form of justice to ensure past retribution and future safety.
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That's the way it used to be. In the old days, someone like this dude would be declared an "outlaw" (meaning outside the protection of the law) for a period of three years or so, and the aggrieved party (or his/her relatives) would seek satisfaction on their own.
 
I rest my case. None of the European posters has any problem with this sentence and one even suggests it's 'civilized' because it allows for the possibility of redemption for the murderer. I'm not sure how a murderer 'redeems' himself after murdering 77 people, but I'm sure you folks in Europe can enlighten me.
 
Higgins86 said:
once again Norway doesnt speak for Europe and indifferent to what Norway does or does not. As for the British legal system again the laws state sentences such as 16 years for child murder but are often extended by the Home Sec, can you name me a case where a mass killer walked free in the UK after serving a short sentence?
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How about just murdering one, or does that no longer count as a serious crime in Britain? How about Glyn Dix and Stephen Ayre and at least 63 others. Dix and Ayre were so 'redeemed' they went out and murdered again.

Trail of crime by 65 killers who were freed early - Telegraph
 
Wiggen said:
I rest my case. None of the European posters has any problem with this sentence and one even suggests it's 'civilized' because it allows for the possibility of redemption for the murderer. I'm not sure how a murderer 'redeems' himself after murdering 77 people, but I'm sure you folks in Europe can enlighten me.
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The possibility exists of your gaining enlightenment, but based on your posting thus far, the odds on it occurring are vanishingly small.
 
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