Scotland gun argument proxy thread

[Red_Dave]

Continued from: [URL]http://www.debatepolitics.com/...posed-new-constitution-10.html#post1060116593[/url]

Higgins said

and yet america puts more people in prison than any other country in the world and detroit was named in the top 10 most dangerous cities in the world.​

Last edited by Higgins86; Today at 10:00 PM.​

Which was a poor example given detroits relatively strict gun laws. Again i would use the counter example of Switzerland and Scandinavia.​

 

[Higgins86]

Continued from: [URL]http://www.debatepolitics.com/...posed-new-constitution-10.html#post1060116593[/url]

Higgins said



Which was a poor example given detroits relatively strict gun laws. Again i would use the counter example of Switzerland and Scandinavia. [/INDENT][/COLOR]

if Guns dropped crime rates and acted as a deterrent America would be one of the safest places to live in the history of the world but clearly its not. Don't get me wrong I am not anti gun ownership but this myth that guns will protect you from this violent world is a joke. "Guns dont kill people, people do" but its a hell of a lot easier to kill someone with a pistol than it is with a knife! If Scotland want guns let them have them but I know Scotland pretty well and I dont think they need them or want them!

 

[Red_Dave]

if Guns dropped crime rates and acted as a deterrent America would be one of the safest places to live in the history of the world but clearly its not. Don't get me wrong I am not anti gun ownership but this myth that guns will protect you from this violent world is a joke. "Guns dont kill people, people do" but its a hell of a lot easier to kill someone with a pistol than it is with a knife! If Scotland want guns let them have them but I know Scotland pretty well and I dont think they need them or want them!

Similarly an elderly or physically weak person could better defend themselves with a gun then they could with knives (although simply allowing us to carry knives would be a start, at the moment they are considering banning pepper spray) far from being barbaric guns are a force equalizer while their absence submits us to the laws of the jungle. Guns arent a complete solution but they do help, espicially when compared with a cohesive and eglaterian society, hence Canada, Scandinavia, Switzerland.

 

[Higgins86]

Similarly an elderly or physically weak person could better defend themselves with a gun then they could with knives (although simply allowing us to carry knives would be a start, at the moment they are considering banning pepper spray) far from being barbaric guns are a force equalizer while their absence submits us to the laws of the jungle. Guns arent a complete solution but they do help, espicially when compared with a cohesive and eglaterian society, hence Canada, Scandinavia, Switzerland.

so you would be in favour of arming every country in the world with Nukes?

 

[Wessexman]

This topic is one I'm a little split on. As a traditional conservative from semi-rural Dorset, who would love to live in fully rural Dorset, I have a great, great sympathy for the pro-gun side, indeed I largely support it. I do admit though to occasionally finding the difference in violence and shootings between Britain, and much of the West, and the US a little off putting.

However, I believe in Britain gun violence increased with each stage in gun prohibition and the US has other issues, such as a fast paced, uprooted and large society, which have at least as much to blame for its problems. So I'm very much in favour of relaxing gun law. Plus the last round of bans, in 1997, were from New Labour and New Labour and Blair, by definition, despise anything to do with English liberties, so that makes me doubly opposed to their action on this front.

 

[Red_Dave]

so you would be in favour of arming every country in the world with Nukes?

Intresting comparison but

1 The consequences would be somewhat greater if it went wrong

2 This assumes that force equalization would be desirable in International Relations, it certainly wouldnt be desirable if Gaddafi was on the same level as everyone else.

3 Rouge states make up a far greater proportion of the international community then rouge people make up the population of a given country.

 

[Red_Dave]

This topic is one I'm a little split on. As a traditional conservative from semi-rural Dorset, who would love to live in fully rural Dorset, I have a great, great sympathy for the pro-gun side, indeed I largely support it. I do admit though to occasionally finding the difference in violence and shootings between Britain, and much of the West, and the US a little off putting.

However, I believe in Britain gun violence increased with each stage in gun prohibition and the US has other issues, such as a fast paced, uprooted and large society, which have at least as much to blame for its problems. So I'm very much in favour of relaxing gun law. Plus the last round of bans, in 1997, were from New Labour and New Labour and Blair, by definition, despise anything to do with English liberties, so that makes me doubly opposed to their action on this front.

Don't get me wrong I'm pretty torn myself. I live in Stoke at present so I am not sure that I would want to be out on the town the weekend after guns are legalized. Although I would be far more scared of people who where drunk and agressive or who didnt have the training that Americans did then i would be of criminals. The criminals have guns anyway (I've even known *cough' of *relatively small time drug dealers who carry them) and its somewhat terrifying that criminals can carry guns and knives and i cant even carry pepper spray.

 

[Higgins86]

Don't get me wrong I'm pretty torn myself. I live in Stoke at present so I am not sure that I would want to be out on the town the weekend after guns are legalized. Although I would be far more scared of people who where drunk and agressive or who didnt have the training that Americans did the i would be of criminals. The criminals have guns anyway (I've even known *cough' of *relatively small time drug dealers who carry them) and its somewhat terrifying that criminals can carry guns and knives and i cant even carry pepper spray.

lol saturday nights in weatherspoons would be fun...

 

[Red_Dave]

lol saturday nights in weatherspoons would be fun...

My thoughts exactly, though has does this workout in the U.S?

 

[Higgins86]

My thoughts exactly, though has does this workout in the U.S?

yes but as a whole Americans are more sensible drinkers than we are! In New England I cant get nearly as drunk as I can in the UK because the bar tenders cut you off, plus the drinking culture is just different! We are a violent little island and for most British men its not unusual to go out on a saturday and look for a fight.

 

[gunner]

Don't get me wrong I'm pretty torn myself. I live in Stoke at present so I am not sure that I would want to be out on the town the weekend after guns are legalized.

You are assuming those with guns come out at weekends and carry out sinister acts?

Although I would be far more scared of people who where drunk and agressive or who didnt have the training that Americans did then i would be of criminals. The criminals have guns anyway (I've even known *cough' of *relatively small time drug dealers who carry them) and its somewhat terrifying that criminals can carry guns and knives and i cant even carry pepper spray.

Criminals that carry guns, or more pertinent use a firearm, in the UK are fortunately in a minority, "In the United Kingdom in 2009 there were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants" Gun politics in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. And most criminals who carry are involved in 'criminal on criminal' violence. So in my opinion your fears are a tad irrational.

Paul

 

[Goshin]

My thoughts exactly, though has does this workout in the U.S?

Frankly, in the US, most crime takes place in and around impoverished neighborhoods, and areas where drug dealing and consumption are commonplace. Most of the country is actually quite safe as long as one doesn't do anything unreasonable. In most states a permit is required to carry a gun; it is relatively easy to get with a clean record, there is a day-long class mainly on legalities and safety issues and a small fee, but carrying + alcohol is a big no-no and will get your permit suspended in a hurry. Most places in America have rather strict laws against public drunkenness and, at least according to Brits living in America, we don't get the large crowds of drunks out on the street at night that is apparently a feature of life in many UK cities.

Pardon my interjection; back to your Scotland-centered debate.

 

[Wessexman]

Don't get me wrong I'm pretty torn myself. I live in Stoke at present so I am not sure that I would want to be out on the town the weekend after guns are legalized. Although I would be far more scared of people who where drunk and agressive or who didnt have the training that Americans did then i would be of criminals. The criminals have guns anyway (I've even known *cough' of *relatively small time drug dealers who carry them) and its somewhat terrifying that criminals can carry guns and knives and i cant even carry pepper spray.

Yes. The way I look at it is that if you are unarmed you are vulnerable not just to those with guns, but those with knives and even, when you are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage, by others who are unarmed and want to attack you. At least being armed allows you to even the odds a bit.

 

[Red_Dave]

You are assuming those with guns come out at weekends and carry out sinister acts?




Criminals that carry guns, or more pertinent use a firearm, in the UK are fortunately in a minority, "In the United Kingdom in 2009 there were 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants" Gun politics in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. And most criminals who carry are involved in 'criminal on criminal' violence. So in my opinion your fears are a tad irrational.

Paul

I think its more the prospect that people would get carried away with their new toys and do something stupid (I think many underestimate the proportion of gun related deaths that are simply accidental) or that if people got drunk and started fighting guns could be brought out.

And RE your second point, yes there may not alot of criminal on non-criminal violence with involving guns but there is plenty involving knives. If someone wants to defend themselves with a knife then number one they cant without threat of arrest and number two they will be at a disadvantage if they are not physically strong and dexterous and are left at the mercy of those who are.

 

[Wessexman]

Frankly, in the US, most crime takes place in and around impoverished neighborhoods, and areas where drug dealing and consumption are commonplace. Most of the country is actually quite safe as long as one doesn't do anything unreasonable. In most states a permit is required to carry a gun; it is relatively easy to get with a clean record, there is a day-long class mainly on legalities and safety issues and a small fee, but carrying + alcohol is a big no-no and will get your permit suspended in a hurry. Most places in America have rather strict laws against public drunkenness and, at least according to Brits living in America, we don't get the large crowds of drunks out on the street at night that is apparently a feature of life in many UK cities.

Pardon my interjection; back to your Scotland-centered debate.

I'm relatively pro-American, but you get the impression that America is a violent place. Even I would half expect to be vulnerable to being attacked in the US. It probably has little to do with the reality.

Personally what truth there is in this view I do not attribute to gun laws. Rather it probably has more to do with the size of US and the mobility, lack of rootedness and general pace of American life.

 

[Red_Dave]

yes but as a whole Americans are more sensible drinkers than we are! In New England I cant get nearly as drunk as I can in the UK because the bar tenders cut you off, plus the drinking culture is just different! We are a violent little island and for most British men its not unusual to go out on a saturday and look for a fight.

That would certainly explain Canada How I Met Your Mother - U.S.A. vs. Canada - YouTube

 

[Goshin]

I'm relatively pro-American, but you get the impression that America is a violent place. Even would half expect to be vulnerable to being attacked in the US. It probably has little to do with the reality.

Personally what truth there is in this view I do not attribute to gun laws. Rather it probably has more to do with the size of US and the mobility, lack of rootedness and general pace of American life.

I acknowlege that the US has a higher murder rate, but recent studies have put the British general-violent-crime rate as much as 4 times as high as America's. While there is some dispute about differences in statistical collection methods, it is hard to dispute that this is a siginficant finding, indicating that the US is not really "more violent" in general than the UK.


From the Daily Mail.... The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online


Not trying to start an argument, just making what seems a relevant point....

 

[Wessexman]

That is interesting, though apparently the fact we count affray as violent crime may have something to do with it. I have a feeling that a lot of the violence is also centred on pubs and clubs near closing time and certain town centres known for clubs on a Friday and Saturday night. But it certainly an interesting development.

 

[Goshin]

That is interesting, though apparently the fact we count affray as violent crime may have something to do with it. I have a feeling that a lot of the violence is also centred on pubs and clubs near closing time and certain town centres known for clubs on a Friday and Saturday night. But it certainly an interesting development.

My curiosity is aroused: could you please define what an "Affray" means in UK legal terms?

 

[alexa]

yes but as a whole Americans are more sensible drinkers than we are! In New England I cant get nearly as drunk as I can in the UK because the bar tenders cut you off, plus the drinking culture is just different!

Scotland is working hard to change drinking habits. I saw an adult drunk but not madly so who was not allowed to buy alcohol in the local shop. They said it was law not to sell to anyone who was drunk. We are also bringing in minimum pricing in an attempt to make it too expensive to get drunk to often.

We are a violent little island and for most British men its not unusual to go out on a saturday and look for a fight.

Really. I never knew this. :shock:

 

[Wessexman]

My curiosity is aroused: could you please define what an "Affray" means in UK legal terms?

Well I'm not a legal expert, but the article mentioned this. I presume it means scuffles, fights and that sort of thing.

 

[alexa]

Yes. The way I look at it is that if you are unarmed you are vulnerable not just to those with guns, but those with knives and even, when you are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage, by others who are unarmed and want to attack you. At least being armed allows you to even the odds a bit.

as does learning self defence.

 

[Wessexman]

as does learning self defence.

Yes, but it is hardly the same is it. Unless you become some sort of master at unarmed conflict then being outnumbered or attacked with a knife or gun is still going to see the odds against you.

 

[Goshin]

Well I'm not a legal expert, but the article mentioned this. I presume it means scuffles, fights and that sort of thing.

I did a bit of googling, and found that affray is a fairly serious offense that can carry up to 3 years. Those arrested for it are often prosecuted for specific assault charges if those can be levied instead, but it appears to mainly mean fighting, or giving the appearance of beginning a fight, which results in "terror to the public".

This would typically fall under "assault" charges in the US, which I'm pretty sure would be part of violent crime stats.

 

[Higgins86]

Scotland is working hard to change drinking habits. I saw an adult drunk but not madly so who was not allowed to buy alcohol in the local shop. They said it was law not to sell to anyone who was drunk. We are also bringing in minimum pricing in an attempt to make it too expensive to get drunk to often.



Really. I never knew this. :shock:

you never been out in Glasgow on sat night?