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Thread: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

  1. #101
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by GermanGuy
    I'd like to throw my two cents in, without going too deep into the debate:

    I live in Berlin, Germany, and I know quite a few people with immigration background from Muslim countries (see? I am even hesitant saying "Muslims", because according to my experience, most of them are not even religious Muslims). It's true there are some problems with this group of people. Especially young guys from Turkish families often don't know how to behave properly, they seem very macho, often display an authoritarian attitude, they have an awkward attitude towards women, they are overrepresented in the crime rate of that age group.

    But according to my impression, this has nothing at all to do with Islam."..."
    The Usual GermanGuy Snow Job/BS.
    Seeing the German Party who got 1.2% of the vote as the Problem ("Rampant Islamophobia") Instead OF the Problem.

    "Nothing do do with Islam". Whenever you hear that, You know it DOES have to do with Islam. 100% Tell.
    Does Sharia have anything to do with Islam?

    Chancellor Angela Merkel: Muslims in Germany Cannot Live by Sharia
    October 6, 2010
    Chancellor Angela Merkel: Muslims in Germany Cannot Live by Sharia | Logan's Warning

    JUSTICE | 31.08.2011
    Author sees domestic Islamic threat to German justice system
    Author sees domestic Islamic threat to German justice system | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 31.08.2011

    9/1/11
    Islamic 'Arbitrators' Shadow German Law
    Parallel Justice: Islamic 'Arbitrators' Shadow German Law - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
    -

    an old favorite:
    03/02/2005
    The Death of a Muslim Woman
    "The Whore Lived Like a German"
    By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
    http://www.Spiegel.de/international/...344374,00.html


    -
    and these must be the Less religious ones you speak of:
    CAUTION: CONTAINS OBSCENITY



    Whole Schools in Chaos, [non-Muslim] German students terrorized by young thugs of a rapidly reproducing population. Teachers Beat up. Routine.
    These 'students' should be rounded up and Imprisoned en masse.
    Last edited by mbig; 10-01-11 at 01:24 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  2. #102
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Really, mbig, don't you have a life? Don't you feel bad being scared all the time? And do you really not know who you are, without having someone to hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The Usual GermanGuy Snow Job/BS.
    Seeing the German Party who got 1.2% of the vote as the Problem ("Rampant Islamophobia") Instead OF the Problem.

    "Nothing do do with Islam". Whenever you hear that, You know it DOES have to do with Islam!
    Does Sharia have anything to do with Islam?

    Chancellor Angela Merkel: Muslims in Germany Cannot Live by Sharia
    October 6, 2010
    Chancellor Angela Merkel: Muslims in Germany Cannot Live by Sharia | Logan's Warning
    Oh my, talk about neurotic, sick fixation on a topic ... when I look at that site. What must be wrong with you, when you dedicate your entire life an energy on making up a website focusing on nothing but hatred against a minority? (I know it's not you, mbig, who is running that site ... I mean the people who run it.)

    And an islamophobic party winning 1.2% of the votes being a problem? Of course this party fortunately isn't a problem. But islamophobia is much more widespread, and in countries like the Netherlands or Austria, they win up to 20% in elections. That's what I indeed see as the bigger problem.

    Apart from that ... I don't even disagree with Merkel. It's a no-brainer that Muslims here must respect the law. But that Merkel makes this statement has more to do with her appeasing scared islamophobes, than with demands of Sharia law being an actual problem in Germany. The article mentions Thilo Sarrazin, and Merkel's statement was meant as a nod to his ilk.

    On top of that, many statements in the article are factually wrong. There are not 4 million Muslims in Germany. There is no official statistic on the number of Muslims in Germany, the 4 million figure is the number of "people with immigration background from Muslim countries" -- which means many of them are either Christian or Alevites (i.e. Copts or Egyptian Christians, Turkish minorities), and Turkish secularists/atheists.

    Not sure if you are familiar with German law, but reaching a deal outside of court for civil cases is common here, not just among Muslims. Whenever it's a capital crime, of course, the courts step in. If anything, it's a good thing when Muslims in Germany don't burden our courts and thus taxpayer money with minor civil squabbles.

    But even if you believe that's a problem, you'll notice this really is a fringe phenomenon. It would really, really take me wonder if the number of Muslims in Germany engaging in such behavior is bigger than the number of 30,000 violent neo-Nazis and ca. 700,000 domestic voters of the neo-Nazi party NPD.

    Does that mean it's legitimate to address this problem? Of course it is. But it's really hysteric to blow it out of proportion. Domestic neo-Nazis in Germany are a problem too, but hey, they are nowhere near taking over -- their party does hardly even have a chance of entering the parliament. In the 2009 election, the NPD reached 1.5% of the votes only. No big deal. An islamist party? Does not even exist.

    So why don't you chose a new obsession and focus on the neo-Nazi fringe for a change, preaching about the impending doom due to a fourth reich takeover? Everybody needs a hobby.

    -
    and these must be the Less religious ones you speak of:
    CAUTION: CONTAINS OBSCENITY

    Yes, exactly. You will notice that the words "Islam" or "religion" are not mentioned in the video a single time (at least not in the original German track, I didn't read the English subs). In my experience, immigrants who actually care about the religion of Islam are much less likely to behave in such an anti-social manner.

    On top of that, the Rütli school issue is really an old hat. This video is about 5 years old or so -- back then, the teachers of the Rütli school went to the public, complaining about the conditions at that school. This resulted in massive public support für this school, so that in the meantime, it has become a real model school many parents want to send their children to.

    Rütli School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The media hype revealed a few ugly sides too: For example, there were cases when journalists asked students to speak and act violently on purpose, for that they would get a good story.

    If anything, this example supports my claim that Islam plays a minor role in this problem, but that the real problem is lack of proper education, social status and clash of cultures. Look it up. If I remember correctly, none of the involved teachers and school directors ever mentioned Islam specifically is the problem here.

    On top of that, this incident took place in the broader context of a reform of the broken German school system. I don't want to bore you with the details, so I just say much has happened since the Rütli incident in 2005 or 06.
    Last edited by German guy; 10-01-11 at 01:45 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  3. #103
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Really, mbig, don't you have a life? Don't you feel bad being scared all the time? And do you really not know who you are, without having someone to hate?


    Oh my, talk about neurotic, sick fixation on a topic ... when I look at that site. What must be wrong with you, when you dedicate your entire life an energy on making up a website focusing on nothing but hatred against a minority? (I know it's not you, mbig, who is running that site ... I mean the people who run it.)
    "Scared", not at all.
    I deal with Muslims every weak. Mostly Turks and Iranians as I collect..... Islamic Art! LOL
    Though If I attended those schools I certainly would be Scared.
    If I was a progressive/normal Muslim woman in the West I would also be scared of my own Family.
    If I lived in or bordering any Muslim neighborhods in Germany (or Sweden/Malmo, Paris, etc, etc, etc) I would also be scared.

    4 posts a day is having "no life"?
    Responding ON Topic is "Sick Neurotic Fixation"?

    Apart from that ... I don't even disagree with Merkel. It's a no-brainer that Muslims here must respect the law. But that Merkel makes this statement has more to do with her appeasing scared islamophobes, than with demands of Sharia law being an actual problem in Germany....
    So "apart from me being right" you can dispense with the Invective.

    Frankly Your apologism for Islamism spans your whole time here and takes a far Higher percentage of YOUR posts here than mine do pointing out it's problems.
    Talk about "Sick, Neurotic, fixations".
    Clearly I hit a nerve, Your PC apologism which is your Main theme here. While I make more posts on things like economics, (more on EU economics than any Euros!), science (started Team Science), Arts/Entertainment, American Politics, etc.
    Last edited by mbig; 10-01-11 at 01:58 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  4. #104
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    "Scared", not at all.
    I deal with Muslims every weak. Mostly Turks and Iranians as I collect..... Islamic Art! LOL
    Though If I attended those schools I certainly would be Scared.
    If I was a progressive/normal Muslim woman in the West I would also be scared of my own Family.

    4 posts a day is having "no life"?
    Responding ON Topic is "Sick Neurotic Fixation"?


    So "apart from me being right" you can dispense with the Invective.

    Frankly Your apologism for Islamism spans your whole time here and takes a far Higher percentage of YOUR posts here than mine do pointing out it's problems.
    Talk about "Sick, Neurotic, fixations".
    Clearly I hit a nerve, Your Main nerve, Your PC apologism which is your Main theme here. While I make more posts on things like economics, science, Arts/Entertainment, etc.
    Look, mbig, I really don't want to make this personal. You probably are a good guy.

    What I don't get is ... you rip a few anecdotes out of context to justify hatred against a significant minority group. And I am a "Muslim apologist" and "PC"-something? What is this even supposed to mean? Do we even live on the same planet? What do you have for breakfast? Since when has it become a bad thing to demand basic decency and respect for people in general, even if they happen to be Muslims? Are you being serious this is the level you want to debate on?

    Let's try to get constructive: Do you have a constructive idea what to do about the problem? I mean specifically. You don't like Muslims, so much I understand. But what are we supposed to do about it? Throwing them out of the country? Forced re-education? Labor camps? Gas? I'm not insinuating you want anything like that, I am just interested in what constructive approaches you propose.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #105
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Oh, and just for the record: I would really prefer debating more about other topics than Islam of all things. Problem is, I am European, so my focus is on the Europe forum. Often I find topics I prefer, such as the Pirate Party's success in Berlin I posted about last time.

    Unfortunately, the Europe forum gets invaded time and again by people, often Americans, who don't want to talk about Europe in any other context but Islam. At least "Republic of Public"'s rants no longer pollute this forum, which is a progress already.

    But hey, it's not these topics don't exist. Mbig, I would really love to read your opinion on the Pirate Party.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  6. #106
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Look, mbig, I really don't want to make this personal. You probably are a good guy.
    You did make it personal. ("no life", "sick", "Neurotic", "fixated")
    Worse, you were wrong.

    What I don't get is ... you rip a few anecdotes out of context to justify hatred against a significant minority group.
    Only one article was an 'anecdote' and it contexted itself.
    Three on Shadow Sharia Justice is NOT anecdote.
    This is a Dishonest characterization.


    And I am a "Muslim apologist" and "PC"-something? What is this even supposed to mean?....
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...-step-gas.html (German neo-Nazis: "Step on the gas!")
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...-fascists.html (Europeans a bunch of racists, sexists and fascists?)
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...ism-islam.html (Islamophobia or upholding Western values? Are there limits to criticism of Islam?)
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...d-germany.html (Islamophobic right has reached Germany?)

    Let's try to get constructive: Do you have a constructive idea what to do about the problem?
    Problem? What Problem?
    Are you now acknowledging a problem?

    I mean specifically. You don't like Muslims, so much I understand. But what are we supposed to do about it? Throwing them out of the country? Forced re-education? Labor camps? Gas? I'm not insinuating you want anything like that, I am just interested in what constructive approaches you propose.
    EUers are gradually figuring out what to do about the problem.
    Curtailing Immigration, Banning Muslim Garb, Minarets, etc
    More Right-leaning parties are getting elected and doing just that.
    The Leaders of Germany, France, UK, Spain, etc Also acknowledging there Is a problem (beyond 'phobia') and saying they will be less tolerant of THE Intolerant.
    Some have proposed a Loyalty type oath for immigrants that they will live by the laws of the country they enter.
    "Gas" is a Hypocritical personal attack on your part in the very post you suggest not making them.
    "Forced re-education"... for the students pictured.. why YES! Absolutely. Highly Disciplined Reform School with a cultural theme as well for Large amounts of them.
    Re-education. YES. YES. Wilkommen to the EU.

    For places like Malmo? Call out the Army or Quadruple the Police. The reign of terror ends tomorrow.
    These places are Lost/conceded to Islamic immigrants as some neighborhoods in Paris, etc and apparently, at least some public schools in Berlin.
    Last edited by mbig; 10-01-11 at 02:31 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  7. #107
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    You did make it personal. ("no life", "sick", "Neurotic", "fixated")
    Well, if that's how you understood it, I apologize. But that is how I perceive the average islamophobe.

    Worse, you were wrong.
    I assume this is why you did not reply to my comment on the Rütli school incident.

    So suddenly it has become a bad thing ("PC") to oppose neo-Nazism and other forms of chauvinism? If that's what you believe, I rather don't want to know what else you believe. And in this case, you are hardly a smaller threat to freedom and democracy, than radical islamists.

    Problem? What Problem?
    Are you now acknowledging a problem?
    You can identify quite a few problems I acknowledge in my postings above.

    EUers are gradually figuring out what to do about the problem.
    Curtailing Immigration, Banning Muslim Garb, Minarets, etc
    The Leaders of Germany, France, UK, Spain, etc Also acknowledging there Is a problem (beyond 'phobia') and saying they will be less tolerant of THE Intolerant.
    Some have proposed a Loyalty type oath for immigrants that they will live by the laws of the country they enter.
    "Gas" is a Hypocritical personal attack on your part in the very post you suggest not making them.
    "Forced re-education"... for the students pictured.. why YES! Absolutely. Highly Disciplined Reform School with a cultural theme as well for Large amounts of them.

    For place like Malmo? Call out the Army or Quadruple the Police.
    These places are Lost/conceded to Islamic immigrants as many neigborhoos in Paris, and apparently, at least some public schools in Berlin.
    Good to know where you are standing. And I believe this speaks for itself.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  8. #108
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    So suddenly it has become a bad thing ("PC") to oppose neo-Nazism and other forms of chauvinism? .
    There is more than a bit of a paradox inherent in this statement, GG, because opposing chauvenism when it takes a Mulsm form results in being labeled an Islamophobe.

    As an example, 2/3 of British Muslims believe people should be jailed if they criticize Islam. This degree of supremacism SHOULD be opposed and opposed just as strenously as ooposition to similar intolerant attitudes arising from within native European populations, yet the very same people who are quick to oppose the European variety call others "Islamophobes" lest they commit the faux pas of criticizing Islamic supremacism.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  9. #109
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    There is more than a bit of a paradox inherent in this statement, GG, because opposing chauvenism when it takes a Mulsm form results in being labeled an Islamophobe.

    As an example, 2/3 of British Muslims believe people should be jailed if they criticize Islam. This degree of supremacism SHOULD be opposed and opposed just as strenously as ooposition to similar intolerant attitudes arising from within native European populations, yet the very same people who are quick to oppose the European variety call others "Islamophobes" lest they commit the faux pas of criticizing Islamic supremacism.
    I agree with you, Gardener, and I believe it's true that we often get our wires crossed in such a debate.

    As you can see in my posting above, I clearly acknowledged the problems with such backward attitudes among many immigrants from Muslim countries. Another problem you did not explicitly mention is anti-Semitism among Muslim immigrants.

    My opinion is just that it overshoots the mark when we attach these existing problems to the religion of Islam in a broad-brush manner, when we bloat up this issue to a genuine "war of civilizations". This is not what the problems needs to become, I believe. It's not beneficial when the problem is blown out of proportion. It is a problem, true, but hardly as big as many might want to make you believe. I believe it's possible to address these problems without being disrespectful towards those many immigrants who do a good job of fitting in and respecting the law. And let's not forget that freedom of religion is a fundamental Western value, even if this religion happens to be Islam.

    Maybe my reaction on mbig was too "knee-jerkish". I apologize if that's the case. It's just that I meet too many islamophobes all the time, who indeed overshoot the mark, don't offer constructive ideas and are only motivated by hardly veiled xenophobia. Like that angry mob of anti-mosque protesters the other day. Maybe I made the mistake of judging mbig and other islam critics with a too broad brush too. Sorry if that's the case.

    But I would be the first to support constructive approaches to these problems: Key is education. We need more efforts and money for integration and the strained public school system and social programs. I don't believe discriminating against Muslims, repression of any kind can yield significant positive results, but a better teacher/student ratio and special programs for hard cases certainly can.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  10. #110
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    Re: Muslim peace conference condems terrorism

    [QUOTE=mbig;1059840352]

    EUers are gradually figuring out what to do about the problem.
    Curtailing Immigration, Banning Muslim Garb, Minarets, etcMore Right-leaning parties are getting elected and doing just that.
    The Leaders of Germany, France, UK, Spain, etc Also acknowledging there Is a problem (beyond 'phobia') and saying they will be less tolerant of THE Intolerant.
    Some have proposed a Loyalty type oath for immigrants that they will live by the laws of the country they enter.
    "Gas" is a Hypocritical personal attack on your part in the very post you suggest not making them.
    "Forced re-education"... for the students pictured.. why YES! Absolutely. Highly Disciplined Reform School with a cultural theme as well for Large amounts of them.
    Re-education. YES. YES. Wilkommen to the EU.

    Succinctly put, mbig. I think this one paragraph demonstrates how difficult it is to debate you on any sort of rational level. Above all what strikes me is the utter hypocrisy of the bolded line. Time after time you have 'banged the religious freedom drum' where you rightfully show (in an abundance of threads) disgust at intolerance of Christians in any particular circumstance, where discrimination is shown to be prevalent. But of course, your fine with discrimination against Muslim places of worship etc!! i get it now.

    Paul
    RIP THE EUROPEAN FORUM 2016

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