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West Virginia Flooding, The Real Story

a large part of the issue is that the major creeks that run through there were never maintained. They haven't been dredged in years and all the silt build up has caused them to be
shallow where before they were deep.

mountain top removal has affected the weather patterns as the mountains no longer can break up or deflect weather which is what they were doing.
the degree to which they do is the question.

Kanawha county and Nicholas are not mining area's if they are then they are more underground mining.
he doesn't know what he is talking about.

I don't know much about mining in W. Va but can someone explain Figure 6 at this link? http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/mtrm/wvgesmtr.pdf

It's a geological survey that indicates major MTR activities through the southern part of Kanawha and northern part of Nicholas county.
 
Another small, missed by the environmrentalists, point is that alternative energy production destroys more land per energy unit to produce than coal. Alcohol from corn is a net energy loser and utilizes a lot of land. Solar production requires huge areas of land and renders it unfit for habitat. Wind? Special exemptions for bird kills must be granted.

Got links for any of that?

And if I install a solar panel on my roof, how much additional land is rendered unfit for habitat? I thought it would be zero, but maybe I'm missing something.

BTW, yes, wind turbines kill birds (up to 400,000 per year). So do cats, about 10,000 times more, or up to 3.7 billion. Radio and cell towers kill 20-30 times more (maybe 7 million). Seems like lots of birds killed for lots of reasons. Don't see that wind turbines are what we'd worry about if we're bird lovers. If we are, we should kill all the cats, which I'm fine with for other reasons....;) KIDDING!!!
 
Hmmm....

Water goes downstream and many rivers are very long...

This has been happening in that area for thousands and thousands of years. MTM is bad practice, but it didn't cause the flooding in that area of WV. I think the Hobet is the closest significant operation, and it's not close enough to cause this event. We're under a flood watch here tonight. It's not unusual in the mountains.
 
This has been happening in that area for thousands and thousands of years. MTM is bad practice, but it didn't cause the flooding in that area of WV. I think the Hobet is the closest significant operation, and it's not close enough to cause this event. We're under a flood watch here tonight. It's not unusual in the mountains.

Would that not be more reason not to tear off the tops of them?
 
Got links for any of that?

And if I install a solar panel on my roof, how much additional land is rendered unfit for habitat? I thought it would be zero, but maybe I'm missing something.

BTW, yes, wind turbines kill birds (up to 400,000 per year). So do cats, about 10,000 times more, or up to 3.7 billion. Radio and cell towers kill 20-30 times more (maybe 7 million). Seems like lots of birds killed for lots of reasons. Don't see that wind turbines are what we'd worry about if we're bird lovers. If we are, we should kill all the cats, which I'm fine with for other reasons....;) KIDDING!!!

The manufacture of solar panels is a messy, high-polluting business. Same with batteries. Wind turbines, probably not so much.

Solar Energy Isn’t Always as Green as You Think - IEEE Spectrum
 
I don't know much about mining in W. Va but can someone explain Figure 6 at this link? http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/mtrm/wvgesmtr.pdf

It's a geological survey that indicates major MTR activities through the southern part of Kanawha and northern part of Nicholas county.

Lived there most of my life or until I was 24 and moved away. Unless they ramped it up most of that was further south. Even so it was not the cause of the flooding. There are a lot of creek bed and streams and rivers that run through the state. They simply couldn't hold all the water. My mom who lives there said they got 6 inches of rain in an hour where she lived. The 3big damns were having to be drained to keep the water at bay
 
The manufacture of solar panels is a messy, high-polluting business. Same with batteries. Wind turbines, probably not so much.

Solar Energy Isn’t Always as Green as You Think - IEEE Spectrum

And drilling for oil, mining coal, and fracking for natural gas, are messy, high polluting businesses. If you've got data that show solar is worse over the life cycle of a typical panel than the equivalent in fossil fuels, you're free to cite it.

Your article also mentions several times that the pollution associated with manufacturing solar panels is mostly avoidable (those in China often don't, but then their billion people also breath some of the dirtiest air on the planet, and U.S. firms have to "compete" with that - thanks "Free Trade"!!), and that new technologies are reducing the pollution risks, although clearly not eliminating them.
 
And drilling for oil, mining coal, and fracking for natural gas, are messy, high polluting businesses. If you've got data that show solar is worse over the life cycle of a typical panel than the equivalent in fossil fuels, you're free to cite it.

Your article also mentions several times that the pollution associated with manufacturing solar panels is mostly avoidable (those in China often don't, but then their billion people also breath some of the dirtiest air on the planet, and U.S. firms have to "compete" with that - thanks "Free Trade"!!), and that new technologies are reducing the pollution risks, although clearly not eliminating them.

Batteries are not exactly earth friendly little buggers either.
 
Batteries are not exactly earth friendly little buggers either.

And neither are oil drilling operations or coal powered plants. Here's a picture of a rupture of a TVA coal ash pond a few miles down the road.

IMG_0583_full.jpg


How about some oil covered birds from the BP spill?

AR-160419237.jpg


Point is saying batteries are not "earth friendly" is not saying anything at all worthwhile, unless you compare their environmental impact with the current alternatives, which are also clearly often very environmentally destructive.
 
And neither are oil drilling operations or coal powered plants. Here's a picture of a rupture of a TVA coal ash pond a few miles down the road.

IMG_0583_full.jpg


How about some oil covered birds from the BP spill?

AR-160419237.jpg


Point is saying batteries are not "earth friendly" is not saying anything at all worthwhile, unless you compare their environmental impact with the current alternatives, which are also clearly often very environmentally destructive.

Once they start making a billion batteries, you'll see much the same thing as above from that production. Not to mention the political fallout in places where there is Lithium, Cadmium and Nickel. The only reason you are not seeing this yet is because there is still not a huge demand for batteries. Just wait.
 
Once they start making a billion batteries, you'll see much the same thing as above from that production. Not to mention the political fallout in places where there is Lithium, Cadmium and Nickel. The only reason you are not seeing this yet is because there is still not a huge demand for batteries. Just wait.

I think you are correct. Battery use and production is pretty small compared to what it is expected to become.
 
Once they start making a billion batteries, you'll see much the same thing as above from that production. Not to mention the political fallout in places where there is Lithium, Cadmium and Nickel. The only reason you are not seeing this yet is because there is still not a huge demand for batteries. Just wait.

Do you have any evidence or are you just pulling stuff from your rear end?

Just as an example, in China the air pollution from coal is estimated to kill several hundred thousand per year. I've seen no estimates that battery pollution will have similar effects but I'm willing to learn if you have actual evidence instead of a generalized, baseless opposition to alternative energy.
 
I think you are correct. Battery use and production is pretty small compared to what it is expected to become.

"Think" or "the evidence I've seen supports that position." If the latter, please cite it.
 
Do you have any evidence or are you just pulling stuff from your rear end?

Just as an example, in China the air pollution from coal is estimated to kill several hundred thousand per year. I've seen no estimates that battery pollution will have similar effects but I'm willing to learn if you have actual evidence instead of a generalized, baseless opposition to alternative energy.

Common sense. Lithium-Cadmium is not exactly rose pedals. The **** is highly toxic, hard to mine and even more difficult to dispose of safely. And, if you have any understanding of volume, like the difference between manufacturing a million batteries a year versus a billion, then it's a no-brainier. But, hey, feel free to wait for "evidence."
 
Common sense. Lithium-Cadmium is not exactly rose pedals. The **** is highly toxic, hard to mine and even more difficult to dispose of safely. And, if you have any understanding of volume, like the difference between manufacturing a million batteries a year versus a billion, then it's a no-brainier. But, hey, feel free to wait for "evidence."

OK, it's rear end stuff. Got it.... :roll:

Got to love the scare quotes around "evidence" as well. I guess you prefer to make decisions based on uninformed gut feelings?
 
OK, it's rear end stuff. Got it.... :roll:

Got to love the scare quotes around "evidence" as well. I guess you prefer to make decisions based on uninformed gut feelings?

Actually I'm somewhat of an expert on high volume production. But, hey. Free country. Keep holding onto your "green" delusions. I'm sure it sells well at cocktail parties.
 
Actually I'm somewhat of an expert on high volume production. But, hey. Free country. Keep holding onto your "green" delusions. I'm sure it sells well at cocktail parties.

Well, if you're an expert, you shouldn't have any problem citing some "evidence." In every profession I know of, the ability to back opinions up with evidence is in fact one of the defining characteristics of an "expert" in a field.

And I doubt your "expert" claim with regard to alternative energy. The relevant standard for e.g. solar/batteries isn't whether solar is itself 'clean' or 'dirty' however we might objectively define those terms, but whether solar is clean or dirty relative to alternatives such as fossil fuels, oil, gas, coal, etc..
 
Well, if you're an expert, you shouldn't have any problem citing some "evidence." In every profession I know of, the ability to back opinions up with evidence is in fact one of the defining characteristics of an "expert" in a field.

And I doubt your "expert" claim with regard to alternative energy. The relevant standard for e.g. solar/batteries isn't whether solar is itself 'clean' or 'dirty' however we might objectively define those terms, but whether solar is clean or dirty relative to alternatives such as fossil fuels, oil, gas, coal, etc..

If, as is currently the case with the limited solar panel and battery production we see today, we only pulled a couple lumps of coal from the ground or pumped only a few gallons of oil into a truck, you'd see virtually no environmental issues either. Think, man.
 
If, as is currently the case with the limited solar panel and battery production we see today, we only pulled a couple lumps of coal from the ground or pumped only a few gallons of oil into a truck, you'd see virtually no environmental issues either. Think, man.

You're beating straw men here, which isn't the sign of an actual expert.

OK, making batteries and solar panels to scale will create significant amounts of pollution. Great. I acknowledge the obvious, and have never quibbled with that assertion as far as it goes.

But we also KNOW that drilling for oil, refining it and burning the by products (gas, diesel, etc.) produces massive amounts of pollution as well. Same with coal over a life cycle, and fracking for natural gas. How will solar panels at full production compare RELATIVE TO THE KNOWN ALTERNATIVES?
 
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