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Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Worldw

Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

No-one can be blamed for being fooled by hyper-partisan propaganda sources. Starting a thread declaring that someone should "burn in hell" before even bothering to cross-check against more obvious, reliable and easily-accessible sources is a little unkind, however.

Your condescension toward the OP does not make your claims any more true--or the claims in the article cited any less true. I read it, and I was pleasantly surprised to see how thoroughly documented it was. Again and again, the author cited specific articles and quoted identified experts on the subject.

Pseudo-liberals of the same stripe that ginned up the hysteria against DDT are now trying to whitewash the millions of deaths of people in underdeveloped countries that efforts to coerce the governments of those countries into not using DDT have surely caused. But what are the lives of a few tens of millions of colored people in distant lands, compared to the warm feeling of being kind and noble that dopey environmentalists, most of them white and relatively well-off, get from trying so earnestly to protect The Planet? Shouldn't we pay less attention to the suffering and death these good, considerate people cause through their foolishness, and more to the fact they mean well?
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

Your condescension toward the OP does not make your claims any more true--or the claims in the article cited any less true. I read it, and I was pleasantly surprised to see how thoroughly documented it was. Again and again, the author cited specific articles and quoted identified experts on the subject.

Pseudo-liberals of the same stripe that ginned up the hysteria against DDT are now trying to whitewash the millions of deaths of people in underdeveloped countries that efforts to coerce the governments of those countries into not using DDT have surely caused. But what are the lives of a few tens of millions of colored people in distant lands, compared to the warm feeling of being kind and noble that dopey environmentalists, most of them white and relatively well-off, get from trying so earnestly to protect The Planet? Shouldn't we pay less attention to the suffering and death these good, considerate people cause through their foolishness, and more to the fact they mean well?

Your point is invalid. Refer to Deltoid at Scienceblogs:

The Great DDT Hoax – Deltoid
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

IOW, your points were utterly dismantled and now you can only sputter and wheeze.

Got news for ya: eveyone's paying attention to that (wo)man behind the curtain.

That is your error to make, have a good day! :2wave:
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

Schlub blogger makes Threegoofs feel "SMART!"

As opposed to the schlub blogger at 'Right Wing News'?

Because my guess is that guy made you feel smart for a while, but you're looking pretty much the opposite in this thread.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

In other words, you are mouthing that you are concerned for the theoretical millions of people starving because of misuse of growing practices, but really don't care that much.

I wonder what you'd think when you find out the US government pays many farmers NOT to grow food.

As is done in the EU.

Another crime.

Putting subsidies into argiculture that have the effect of starving the world is surely a crime.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

For those unfamiliar, Tim the Plumber here is declaring that every single person who has ever starved to death over the last 20 years did so because of biofuels.

It's an improvement, at least, because he used to claim "tens of millions," meaning at least 200%of all starvation deaths were a result of biofuels :lamo

No. Lots more people than that have died of hunger related causes.

I would guess that only 90% of those who so died did so with a strong link to bio-fuel.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

I don't have a problem with people eating meat. I have teeth designed for cutting meet and enzimes in my gut to digest the stuff.

I do have a problem with totally artificial manipulation of food prices to extract massive amounts of money from the poorest people in the world and give it to rich farmers in the West.

You say that many times as much land is used to feed animals as cars. Maybe, but I think you have not considered just how much of our cerial crop is used in this way. Lots of animals are raised on land that is unsuitable for cerials.

I can't find the percentage for crops overall, but one of if not the highest-use biofuel crop is corn. About 25% of corn production is diverted to biofuels - hence obviously a much smaller percentage for all cereals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_vs._fuel

By contrast, over one third of all cereal crops are diverted to feed animals. Add to that the fact that while some land used to farm animals is indeed low quality for raising crops, much of it is prime agricultural land. Or former Amazon rainforest, of course. "Producing protein from chickens requires three times as much land as protein from soybeans. Pork needs nine times, beef 32 times." Raising livestock already uses up to three quarters of the world's agricultural land, yet livestock numbers are growing at twice the rate of the human population.
Pregnant Silence | George Monbiot



Pretty sure I've pointed most or all of this out before. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that you were not a rabidly hypocritical anti-scientific ideologue with a particular axe to grind.

Just for laughs, maybe you could tell me how you would propose to address these so-far inevitable consequences of rich countries' higher purchasing power?

We've got more money to satisfy our appetites than people in Ethiopia, whether we choose to feed cars or cows. So what would you propose to do about it?
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

No. Lots more people than that have died of hunger related causes.
you've never once substantiated this claim. Every source I can find says you're massively overshooting the number.

I would guess that only 90% of those who so died did so with a strong link to bio-fuel.[/COLOR]

Absolutely ludicrous. If this were the case, we'd have expected to see an exponential increase in starvation deaths as biofuel use increased from zero. Instead, starvation deaths have decreased steadily for decades.


People who spend their whole lives fighting hunger say that today, starvation is mostly a result of armed conflicts in impoverished regions. You're going to need something better to support your 90% figure than, well, pulling it out of your ass. Which is absolutely what you did.
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

There's also the resurgence of bed bugs*.





* And may they burn in hell beyond eternity.

(Well, ok. Maybe not. That's a little long for anything. Still, for a bit)
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

Trouble is that environmentalists=bad is simply an article of faith for many people. Why that is I could only guess; undoubtedly in some cases they view it as a God-given right for man to have dominion unto the ends of the Earth and over all the beasts thereof, perhaps in others it is a matter of ideology that unregulated free market capitalism is the cure to all the world's ills. Maybe some others were hurt by an environmentalist in their past. Whatever the reason may be, to these people it doesn't matter how clearly and how many times it's shown that they've bought into a blatant hoax (DDT) or they're dramatically misdiagnosing the issues (global agriculture practices), they've got their target in mind and nothing's going to sway them from it. It's a very similar kind of mindset, and just as sad, as the blind anti-corporatism of some others.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

I can't find the percentage for crops overall, but one of if not the highest-use biofuel crop is corn. About 25% of corn production is diverted to biofuels - hence obviously a much smaller percentage for all cereals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_vs._fuel

By contrast, over one third of all cereal crops are diverted to feed animals. Add to that the fact that while some land used to farm animals is indeed low quality for raising crops, much of it is prime agricultural land. Or former Amazon rainforest, of course. "Producing protein from chickens requires three times as much land as protein from soybeans. Pork needs nine times, beef 32 times." Raising livestock already uses up to three quarters of the world's agricultural land, yet livestock numbers are growing at twice the rate of the human population.
Pregnant Silence | George Monbiot



Pretty sure I've pointed most or all of this out before. But let's pretend for the sake of argument that you were not a rabidly hypocritical anti-scientific ideologue with a particular axe to grind.

Just for laughs, maybe you could tell me how you would propose to address these so-far inevitable consequences of rich countries' higher purchasing power?

We've got more money to satisfy our appetites than people in Ethiopia, whether we choose to feed cars or cows. So what would you propose to do about it?

I would bann all agricultural subsidies including the use of food as fuel.

This would not only have the effect of greatly reducing the price of basic food stuff but also making the Ethiopian farmer able to compete on the world market, able to invest and get a return in his farm. Able to improve his life and thus become part of the world economy and thus cared about by the ruling class of Ethiopia. Then they might do things to make the place actually work.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

double post.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

I would bann all agricultural subsidies including the use of food as fuel.

This would not only have the effect of greatly reducing the price of basic food stuff but also making the Ethiopian farmer able to compete on the world market, able to invest and get a return in his farm. Able to improve his life and thus become part of the world economy and thus cared about by the ruling class of Ethiopia. Then they might do things to make the place actually work.

Could do with more nuance, but that'd definitely be a good start. Struggling farmers in Ethiopia (or outback Australia) might need assistance during a drought, for example. And there are certain directions it'd be nice to see agriculture going, though subsidies may rarely or never be the best way to go about it: Encouraging people to eat chicken instead of beef for example, since at least it's more efficient land use for those (like me) who simply can't live without meat :lol: Fish perhaps even moreso; depletion of wild fisheries remains a major concern, but offshore aquaculture could be the next big thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_aquaculture
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

> There was no international ban on DDT until at least the late 1990s
> International measures (and most if not all national measures) to regulate DDT have explicitly included exceptions for the purpose of malaria control
> Widespread agricultural use of DDT could and sometimes have impeded efforts to control malaria, by unnecessarily increasing mosquito populations' resistance to the pesticide
> To this very day the WHO and the US EPA both continue to recommend DDT as one of the options for combating malaria, "citing that benefits of the pesticide outweigh the health and environmental risks"

https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status

No-one can be blamed for being fooled by hyper-partisan propaganda sources. Starting a thread declaring that someone should "burn in hell" before even bothering to cross-check against more obvious, reliable and easily-accessible sources is a little unkind, however.

So did third world countries stop using DDT based on a false premise or not?

It seems funny that when faced with the very real increase in malaria in the third world after the end of DDT use that really was based on faulty statistics the best you can come up with is "B-but-but the government didn't do it!"

In the real world, international environmentalist groups like Environmental Defense have been pushing third world countries to ban DDT, sold using the erroneous statistics in the book Silent Spring that DDT gave children cancer.

That there was never a formal international ban on DDT is immaterial, the fact is that DDT use was ended due to bad statistics and people, mostly children, died because of it.

The international ban benchmark is pretty silly anyway given the inability of the international community to limit CO2 when all the idiots at the UN are true believers in CAGW dogma.
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

So did third world countries stop using DDT based on a false premise or not?

It seems funny that when faced with the very real increase in malaria in the third world after the end of DDT use that really was based on faulty statistics the best you can come up with is "B-but-but the government didn't do it!"

In the real world, international environmentalist groups like Environmental Defense have been pushing third world countries to ban DDT, sold using the erroneous statistics in the book Silent Spring that DDT gave children cancer.

That there was never a formal international ban on DDT is immaterial, the fact is that DDT use was ended due to bad statistics and people, mostly children, died because of it.

The international ban benchmark is pretty silly anyway given the inability of the international community to limit CO2 when all the idiots at the UN are true believers in CAGW dogma.

You haven't given any kind of evidence for your views and it's a little hard to know exactly what you're trying to claim here. So a little clarification, if you don't mind.

1) Do you acknowledge the generally-accepted environmental consequences from DDT's persistence up the food chain?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Environmental_impact
2) Do you acknowledge that indiscriminate use of DDT in agriculture unnecessarily increases resistance amongst malarial mosquito populations?
https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status
3) Do you therefore agree that bans for uses not related to malaria control were and are generally a good idea?
4) Do you recognise that the OP was incorrect and her sources deliberately dishonest in the failure to acknowledge those exemptions (and the attempt to convey the opposite message) in international and most national bans?


As for "the very real increase in malaria in the third world after the end of DDT use," that's a misleading claim at best. Malaria mortality rates have declined and remained low in all regions except sub-Saharan Africa, and even the OP acknowledges that eradication efforts in Africa have been hampered by a number of complicating factors.
FIG. 3.
Malaria mortality in the 20th century. The graph shows the number of malaria deaths per 10,000 population per year in Europe and North America (⧫—⧫); the Caribbean and Central and South America (▪——▪); sub-Saharan Africa (•——•); China and Northeast Asia (X—X); the Middle East, South Asia, and the Western Pacific (▴——▴); and worldwide (⧫—⧫) (see Appendix and Table 3).

F3.medium.gif


Evolutionary and Historical Aspects of the Burden of Malaria

By contrast, attempts by similar means to control malaria in sub-Saharan Africa had little success, except in its southern and most marginal zones of transmission.

Indeed, the malaria problems of Africa were, and are, of an altogether different type from those confronted anywhere else, both in human terms and in the biological factors that underlie African malaria transmission. Above all, the stability and intensity of malaria transmission in Africa presented two huge, actual or potential, problems. When global campaigns for malaria control were being planned at the World Health Organization in the late 1940s and early 1950s, there were many who doubted that even a tool as powerful as DDT could have a significant impact on African malaria because of the intensity of its transmission (48, 58). Moreover, and by the same token, it was questioned whether it was even safe to try to reduce malaria transmission intensities in tropical Africa because of the eventual loss of immunity in the older population (48, 58, 202, 203) and the consequent risk of epidemic malaria should control measures fail.

National malaria control organizations were nevertheless operational in many African countries by the 1950s. It must soon have become clear, however, that whatever may have been being achieved elsewhere by reducing malaria transmission using DDT, rather little effect was served by this approach in sub-Saharan Africa, except in certain limited circumstances and mainly in its southernmost parts.​



We've already seen in this thread that there was indeed at least one example (Sri Lanka) in which a complete ban on DDT was put in place; and soon lifted when malaria rates rose; and not long afterwards the effectiveness of DDT was found to be stymied by mosquitoes' resistance. Obviously, examples such as that don't excuse the dishonest propaganda of the sources used by the OP. And even in that case, no-one has provided any evidence that Rachel Carson or any environmentalist groups are causally responsible for that complete ban.

Again, there's this little thing called 'evidence' that some folk would prefer to see before convicting others to burn in hell for eternity.
 
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Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

You haven't given any kind of evidence for your views and it's a little hard to know exactly what you're trying to claim here. So a little clarification, if you don't mind.

1) Do you acknowledge the generally-accepted environmental consequences from DDT's persistence up the food chain?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Environmental_impact
2) Do you acknowledge that indiscriminate use of DDT in agriculture unnecessarily increases resistance amongst malarial mosquito populations?
https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status
3) Do you therefore agree that bans for uses not related to malaria control were and are generally a good idea?
4) Do you recognise that the OP was incorrect and her sources deliberately dishonest in the failure to acknowledge those exemptions (and the attempt to convey the opposite message) in international and most national bans?

I suppose in fairness and in turn, I should acknowledge that at least Jmotivator's point regarding cancer is a worthwhile one; there doesn't seem to be any clear agreement that I can find about DDT being (or not being) carcinogenic. Which doesn't necessarily mean that Carson lied of course, especially if the jury is still out - scientists often come to incorrect or premature conclusions.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

I suppose in fairness and in turn, I should acknowledge that at least Jmotivator's point regarding cancer is a worthwhile one; there doesn't seem to be any clear agreement that I can find about DDT being (or not being) carcinogenic. Which doesn't necessarily mean that Carson lied of course, especially if the jury is still out - scientists often come to incorrect or premature conclusions.

But, you'll note that jmotivator's position is that DDT has been banned *because* of the data in cancer from Silent Spring...which is untrue.

The jury is still out on cancer, and since its been studied for 60 years with equivocal results, we probably will never know for sure.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

You haven't given any kind of evidence for your views and it's a little hard to know exactly what you're trying to claim here. So a little clarification, if you don't mind.

1) Do you acknowledge the generally-accepted environmental consequences from DDT's persistence up the food chain?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Environmental_impact

The effect on the environment is dependent on how DDT is used. The effective use of DDT in third world countries is in treating upper interior walls where mosquitoes land, drastically reducing the mosquitoes that enter the home during times when mosquitoes feed.

It was this application that was limited for fear that DDT in the home would give children cancer.

2) Do you acknowledge that indiscriminate use of DDT in agriculture unnecessarily increases resistance amongst malarial mosquito populations?
https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status

Good thing we aren't talking about the indiscriminate use of DDT. We are talking about the use of DDT that specifically targets when and where mosquitoes tend to target humans.

3) Do you therefore agree that bans for uses not related to malaria control were and are generally a good idea?

No it isn't. Because the use of DDT to stop the spread of malaria was not the use that would cause environmental harm. You are talking about the use of DDT in farming and agriculture which required large area spraying.

4) Do you recognise that the OP was incorrect and her sources deliberately dishonest in the failure to acknowledge those exemptions (and the attempt to convey the opposite message) in international and most national bans?

No, I think you are being dishonest in trying to mix agricultural and domestic use of DDT as it suits you.


As for "the very real increase in malaria in the third world after the end of DDT use," that's a misleading claim at best. Malaria mortality rates have declined and remained low in all regions except sub-Saharan Africa, and even the OP acknowledges that eradication efforts in Africa have been hampered by a number of complicating factors.
FIG. 3.
Malaria mortality in the 20th century. The graph shows the number of malaria deaths per 10,000 population per year in Europe and North America (⧫—⧫); the Caribbean and Central and South America (▪——▪); sub-Saharan Africa (•——•); China and Northeast Asia (X—X); the Middle East, South Asia, and the Western Pacific (▴——▴); and worldwide (⧫—⧫) (see Appendix and Table 3).

F3.medium.gif


Evolutionary and Historical Aspects of the Burden of Malaria

By contrast...

And still, DDT use had a significant effect on malaria rates in Africa, which then began to climb after the use was curtailed. Your source also exposes the issue with how the DDT use was ended by teh WHO without any official proclamation. The DDT malaria control protocols in the third world were run by the WHO world wide. When DDT was called into question by Rachel Carson's book the WHO stop the direct administration of DDT protocols and left it to local AID groups to administer which often had neither the funds or manpower to implement. This reduction/end of DDT malaria protocols in Africa resulted in an increase in malaria rates in Africa.

Nobody has claimed anything other than the end of malaria protocols lead to increased death by malaria in the third world, which is true. POinting out places where it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, by your own evidence, the place where malaria transmission was most intense (Sub Saharan Africa) is where the end of DDT use resulted in increased death rates. Shocker!


We've already seen in this thread that there was indeed at least one example (Sri Lanka) in which a complete ban on DDT was put in place; and soon lifted when malaria rates rose; and not long afterwards the effectiveness of DDT was found to be stymied by mosquitoes' resistance. Obviously, examples such as that don't excuse the dishonest propaganda of the sources used by the OP. And even in that case, no-one has provided any evidence that Rachel Carson or any environmentalist groups are causally responsible for that complete ban.

Again, there's this little thing called 'evidence' that some folk would prefer to see before convicting others to burn in hell for eternity.

You provided the evidence. Or are supposed to wave it off because it only really hit Africa?

"Call off the dogs, guys! The end of DDT as a malaria control only really hit Africans! *shew!*"
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

The effect on the environment is dependent on how DDT is used. The effective use of DDT in third world countries is in treating upper interior walls where mosquitoes land, drastically reducing the mosquitoes that enter the home during times when mosquitoes feed.

It was this application that was limited for fear that DDT in the home would give children cancer.



Good thing we aren't talking about the indiscriminate use of DDT. We are talking about the use of DDT that specifically targets when and where mosquitoes tend to target humans.



No it isn't. Because the use of DDT to stop the spread of malaria was not the use that would cause environmental harm. You are talking about the use of DDT in farming and agriculture which required large area spraying.



No, I think you are being dishonest in trying to mix agricultural and domestic use of DDT as it suits you.




And still, DDT use had a significant effect on malaria rates in Africa, which then began to climb after the use was curtailed. Your source also exposes the issue with how the DDT use was ended by teh WHO without any official proclamation. The DDT malaria control protocols in the third world were run by the WHO world wide. When DDT was called into question by Rachel Carson's book the WHO stop the direct administration of DDT protocols and left it to local AID groups to administer which often had neither the funds or manpower to implement. This reduction/end of DDT malaria protocols in Africa resulted in an increase in malaria rates in Africa.

Nobody has claimed anything other than the end of malaria protocols lead to increased death by malaria in the third world, which is true. POinting out places where it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. In fact, by your own evidence, the place where malaria transmission was most intense (Sub Saharan Africa) is where the end of DDT use resulted in increased death rates. Shocker!




You provided the evidence. Or are supposed to wave it off because it only really hit Africa?

"Call off the dogs, guys! The end of DDT as a malaria control only really hit Africans! *shew!*"

If you look at actual, you know, factual information, you'll see that DDT is not only a toxin to humans (as well as potential carcinogen), but also a significant environmental toxin, due to its extremely long half life in soil and bioaccumulation. And the OP was in hysterics about its being banned, but the use is actually INCREASING in some countries.


You'll see in this article from Scientific American (I know, I know... its a respected journal but is 'in on the worldwide conspiracy') that the issue with DDT is precisely because it is used in high concentrations INSIDE homes, and cancer isnt really the major issue:

The scientists reported that DDT may have a variety of human health effects, including reduced fertility, genital birth defects, breast cancer, diabetes and damage to developing brains. Its metabolite, DDE, can block male hormones.

"Based on recent studies, we conclude that humans are exposed to DDT and DDE, that indoor residual spraying can result in substantial exposure and that DDT may pose a risk for human populations," the scientists wrote in their consensus statement, published online today in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.

"We are concerned about the health of children and adults given the persistence of DDT and its active metabolites in the environment and in the body, and we are particularly concerned about the potential effects of continued DDT use on future generations."

In 2007, at least 3,950 tons of DDT were sprayed for mosquito control in Africa and Asia, according to a report by the United Nations Environment Programme.

"The volume is increasing slowly," said Hindrik Bouwman, a professor in the School of Environmental Sciences and Development at North-West University in Potchesfstroom, South Africa, who also served on the panel.
 
Re: Environmentalist Genocide: How the Ban on DDT Caused 50 Million Malaria Deaths Wo

You'll see in this article from Scientific American (I know, I know... its a respected journal but is 'in on the worldwide conspiracy') that the issue with DDT is precisely because it is used in high concentrations INSIDE homes, and cancer isnt really the major issue:

"May pose risk" ... yeah, keep trying 3G!

I only listen to those whack jobs at the World Health Organization.

WHO | WHO gives indoor use of DDT a clean bill of health for controlling malaria
 
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