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Electric Cars A Scam

Deuce said:
The numbers in the OP article are bad. Electric cars are better than gas.

Electric cars reduce emissions even if the source is a coal plant, because the electric motor is more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
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they are not bad because you say so.

they are bad because unless you are getting your power from a solar or wind farm or something which 90% of the country isn't.
the majority of power is supplied by coal or nuclear, oil or methane.

then it really isn't reducing emissions.

efficiency is a matter of opinion and what you are doing.
 
I don't have an electric car to "save the planet".

I do however enjoy it for various financial reasons. For many of the features I wanted in a used car, the electric I bought had the best bang for my buck. The cost to operate it, in terms of energy, is relatively similar to my wife's Escape (and far better than my previous vehicle) when gas is down around $2. When Gas is up around $3, it's easily cheaper for me. I also, frankly, enjoy the convenience; paying for all my energy usage in one lump sum as opposed to multiple times. This also helps account for a saving of TIME as well, with no longer needing to stop in gas stations. Which, in and of itself, has been surprisingly nice.

Are they the end all be all? Absolutely not. They're definitely not for everyone, though as ranges increase a lot of the negatives will slowly be removed from them. But I'm definitely happy with my purchase and am seriously considering looking at an economical Tesla or other brand model in a few years.
 
ludin said:
they are not bad because you say so.

they are bad because unless you are getting your power from a solar or wind farm or something which 90% of the country isn't.
the majority of power is supplied by coal or nuclear, oil or methane.

then it really isn't reducing emissions.

efficiency is a matter of opinion and what you are doing.
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Incorrect. Even from a coal plant, the electric motor is better. The power plant is better at extracting energy from coal than your car is at extracting energy from gasoline.

Efficiency isn't a matter of opinion. What the flying ****? It's a matter of physics, dude!
 
Deuce said:
Incorrect. Even from a coal plant, the electric motor is better. The power plant is better at extracting energy from coal than your car is at extracting energy from gasoline.

Efficiency isn't a matter of opinion. What the flying ****? It's a matter of physics, dude!
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yes and having an electric car try and pull a trailer or something isn't that efficient is it?
try and having an electric car pull a load of lumber or bricks isn't very efficient is it?

yes it is a matter of physics. that diesel or combustion engine is going to be highly more efficient.

more power consumption to recharge your car takes more coal etc ...
 
Zyphlin said:
I don't have an electric car to "save the planet".

I do however enjoy it for various financial reasons. For many of the features I wanted in a used car, the electric I bought had the best bang for my buck. The cost to operate it, in terms of energy, is relatively similar to my wife's Escape (and far better than my previous vehicle) when gas is down around $2. When Gas is up around $3, it's easily cheaper for me. I also, frankly, enjoy the convenience; paying for all my energy usage in one lump sum as opposed to multiple times. This also helps account for a saving of TIME as well, with no longer needing to stop in gas stations. Which, in and of itself, has been surprisingly nice.

Are they the end all be all? Absolutely not. They're definitely not for everyone, though as ranges increase a lot of the negatives will slowly be removed from them. But I'm definitely happy with my purchase and am seriously considering looking at an economical Tesla or other brand model in a few years.
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as long as you don't have to drive long distances they are great.
most are only good up to 100 miles.
 
ludin said:
yes and having an electric car try and pull a trailer or something isn't that efficient is it?
try and having an electric car pull a load of lumber or bricks isn't very efficient is it?

yes it is a matter of physics. that diesel or combustion engine is going to be highly more efficient.
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Ludicrous.

The best internal combustion engines are maybe 25% efficient. Electric motors generally are in the upper 90s.
Now, we need to account for the losses from the power plant that produces the electricity of course, but power plants are more efficient at collecting thermal energy than the piddly little engine in your car.

And the picture just gets better when you account for the percentage of power that comes from nuclear/solar/wind.
 
Deuce said:
Ludicrous.

The best internal combustion engines are maybe 25% efficient. Electric motors generally are in the 90s.
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opinion noted.

tell you what I will go borrow a truck and you borrow a electric or suv.
we will both hook up to a boat same size.

we will see which is more efficient at pulling it.

I bet I win.
 
ludin said:
opinion noted.

tell you what I will go borrow a truck and you borrow a electric or suv.
we will both hook up to a boat same size.

we will see which is more efficient at pulling it.

I bet I win.
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Ludin literally doesn't know what the word efficiency means. Christ. I'm out.
 
Deuce said:
Ludin literally doesn't know what the word efficiency means. Christ. I'm out.
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you were out long before you even started posting.

efficiency is determined by what you are doing with said tool.
while in day to day driving a electric motor is more efficient.

when you start getting outside of that day to day driving then it starts to lose efficiency.

also those batteries get worse on consumption as they get older. as most prius owners found out.
4 or 5 years later they were replacing their battery packs. the front pack was costing 500. the main pack was another 4500.
with a telsa it is even worse. it is about 10k to replace the battery pack.

while 4 or 5 years later that combustion engine is still running just as strong as it did day 1.
you obviously do not have much knowledge about battery usage or how they work.
 
ludin said:
as long as you don't have to drive long distances they are great.
most are only good up to 100 miles.
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Absolutely.

My daily commute is roughly 35 miles. Since getting my Leaf last July, I've only had one instance where I got even close to nervous of running out of battery life, and that was due to having it in 80% charge (long life mode) the night before because I forgot we were going out later. And even then, made it home with what turned out to be a good bit more power to spare (we tried to run the battery down once we got near home just to see how long it would take; we got bored and gave up).

The only negative with it is if I want to drive to my parents house, which is a bit over 200 miles away. But we always used to take my wife's car when we went on longer trips anyways, and if I need to go by myself for some reason I can take hers and she can take the leaf around for the weekend.

Now, would I prefer something like the recently announced Chevy Bolt or the new Tesla 3, with over 200+ mileage capability? ABSOLUTELY. That'd definitely be a nice thing to have, but it's not a "must have" for me. For others it may be more of a necessity, but it'd simply be nice for me. The only real benefit would be being able to drive "my" car when I went on long trips as opposed to my wife's.

But for like 95% of what I am typically using my vehicle for? It works great. And if I REALLY want to take a longer drive without taking my wife's car, I can always pull out the Motorcycle.
 
Zyphlin said:
Absolutely.

My daily commute is roughly 35 miles. Since getting my Leaf last July, I've only had one instance where I got even close to nervous of running out of battery life, and that was due to having it in 80% charge (long life mode) the night before because I forgot we were going out later. And even then, made it home with what turned out to be a good bit more power to spare (we tried to run the battery down once we got near home just to see how long it would take; we got bored and gave up).

The only negative with it is if I want to drive to my parents house, which is a bit over 200 miles away. But we always used to take my wife's car when we went on longer trips anyways, and if I need to go by myself for some reason I can take hers and she can take the leaf around for the weekend.

Now, would I prefer something like the recently announced Chevy Bolt or the new Tesla 3, with over 200+ mileage capability? ABSOLUTELY. That'd definitely be a nice thing to have, but it's not a "must have" for me. For others it may be more of a necessity, but it'd simply be nice for me. The only real benefit would be being able to drive "my" car when I went on long trips as opposed to my wife's.

But for like 95% of what I am typically using my vehicle for? It works great. And if I REALLY want to take a longer drive without taking my wife's car, I can always pull out the Motorcycle.
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just hope that you are saving for that new battery pack in about 5 years.
 
ludin said:
just hope that you are saving for that new battery pack in about 5 years.
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I don't expect to have this car in about 5 years. And my current battery, in a 2013 Leaf, is still operating above 90% capacity at the moment, so I'm not particularly worried. By the time it reaches the point that such an issue would occur, I'll have likely got my money's worth out of it and ready to move into a new car.

Plus it's not like I didn't have similar issues with my last car who's Transmission was shot and was going to cost thousands to repair and replace if I wanted to keep using it. Meh.

Nor do I expect the battery packs used in 2020 models will have the same issues and problems in terms of life span and energy loss as you referenced with a car from 2000.
 
ludin said:
you were out long before you even started posting.

efficiency is determined by what you are doing with said tool.
while in day to day driving a electric motor is more efficient.

when you start getting outside of that day to day driving then it starts to lose efficiency.

also those batteries get worse on consumption as they get older. as most prius owners found out.
4 or 5 years later they were replacing their battery packs. the front pack was costing 500. the main pack was another 4500.
with a telsa it is even worse. it is about 10k to replace the battery pack.

while 4 or 5 years later that combustion engine is still running just as strong as it did day 1.
you obviously do not have much knowledge about battery usage or how they work.
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No, efficiency is a measure of the percentage of energy input that is converted to useful work, as opposed to wasted as heat or vibration.

Measured from tank-to-wheels, an internal combustion engine turns about 15% of the energy in gasoline/diesel into forward motion, whereas with an electric car about 70% of the energy in the battery is converted into forward motion.
 
Zyphlin said:
I don't expect to have this car in about 5 years. And my current battery, in a 2013 Leaf, is still operating above 90% capacity at the moment, so I'm not particularly worried. By the time it reaches the point that such an issue would occur, I'll have likely got my money's worth out of it and ready to move into a new car.

Plus it's not like I didn't have similar issues with my last car who's Transmission was shot and was going to cost thousands to repair and replace if I wanted to keep using it. Meh.

Nor do I expect the battery packs used in 2020 models will have the same issues and problems in terms of life span and energy loss as you referenced with a car from 2000.
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yea the newer leafs expects to lose retain 80-70% after 10 years but that depends on the use and charging of the pack.
so mileage on the packs are going to vary.

honestly I wouldn't mind owning one. more so for just around town driving. if I could afford the model x I would entertain getting one.
however I know their limitations.
 
LowDown said:
Moving a 4000 lb vehicle down the road requires a certain amount of energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Likewise, building the vehicle and dealing with it after its useful life has ended requires energy. If that energy comes from carbon fuel burning plants then it's no different in terms of emissions than a vehicle that burns its fuel on board. The idea that electric cars have zero emissions is false. More than false, really, a lie. Because Elon Musk knows better, but he still depends on the falsehood of zero emissions to make sales.

Don't be fooled - Elon Musk's electric cars aren't about to save the planet
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You are assuming that all electric power is generated by fossil fuels, that is not the case and will be even less so in the future. Electric cars charged with power from solar, wind, hydroelectric, or nuclear power are true zero emissions vehicles.
 
Deuce said:
No, efficiency is a measure of the percentage of energy input that is converted to useful work, as opposed to wasted as heat or vibration.

Measured from tank-to-wheels, an internal combustion engine turns about 15% of the energy in gasoline/diesel into forward motion, whereas with an electric car about 70% of the energy in the battery is converted into forward motion.
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you are 100% wrong. efficiency is measured in multiple ways. you don't get to make up your own definitions to suit your argument.
efficiency depends on what you are doing and the purpose for what you are going to do.

hauling a boat with a leaf or other electric car is not very efficient. why? not what they were designed for.
they were designed for day to day driving and short mileage hauls.

in that they do their job well even if they are limited to 100-200 miles per charge.

once you get outside of that scope then their efficiency drops off big time.
 
iguanaman said:
You are assuming that all electric power is generated by fossil fuels, that is not the case and will be even less so in the future. Electric cars charged with power from solar, wind, hydroelectric, or nuclear power are true zero emissions vehicles.
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https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

very few cars are 0 emissions.
even nuclear power plants have to deal with waste.
 
ludin said:
you are 100% wrong. efficiency is measured in multiple ways. you don't get to make up your own definitions to suit your argument.
efficiency depends on what you are doing and the purpose for what you are going to do.

hauling a boat with a leaf or other electric car is not very efficient. why? not what they were designed for.
they were designed for day to day driving and short mileage hauls.

in that they do their job well even if they are limited to 100-200 miles per charge.

once you get outside of that scope then their efficiency drops off big time.
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*sigh*

When discussing lifetime vehicle emissions, yeah, actually, I do get to use this particular definition of efficiency. The reason we need to use this definition of efficiency is that we're trying to assess the per-mile carbon emissions of an electric vehicle, which will make up part of the total lifetime emissions.

You don't use a Leaf to tow a boat, but you could use an electric vehicle with a larger motor and battery pack, and the equivalent emissions of that vehicle would be less than that of your F-150. (although certainly not cost-effective at the current stage of technology)
 
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Manc Skipper said:
An internal combustion engine converts 45% of the fuel needed to run it into useful work. An electric motor gives out 95% of the energy put into it as working power
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which I never argued against.

in fact if you actually read what I said you will find that efficiency is dealt with in multiple area's depending on what we are dealing with.
but for some that is to difficult to understand.

when you get outside the scope of what the vehicle was designed to do the efficiency of that car goes down.
 
ludin said:
which I never argued against.

in fact if you actually read what I said you will find that efficiency is dealt with in multiple area's depending on what we are dealing with.
but for some that is to difficult to understand.

when you get outside the scope of what the vehicle was designed to do the efficiency of that car goes down.
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So what? It's not relevant to the discussion. An SUV is incredibly inefficient at flying, but this is a discussion about carbon emissions.
 
ludin said:
which I never argued against.

in fact if you actually read what I said you will find that efficiency is dealt with in multiple area's depending on what we are dealing with.
but for some that is to difficult to understand.

when you get outside the scope of what the vehicle was designed to do the efficiency of that car goes down.
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Why then do you introduce random factors not under discussion? You move outside the scope.
 
Deuce said:
So what? It's not relevant to the discussion. An SUV is incredibly inefficient at flying, but this is a discussion about carbon emissions.
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I actually thought if they were serious about emissions, pickup trucks would be the best place to
start with hybrids and electrics. Electric motors have much better torque over the entire range
which is what trucks need. The frames and suspensions have the space and extra weight capability as well.
Changing a small commuter car from 35 to 50 mpg, is not that big a savings,
changing a pickup from 15 mpg to 30 mpg would be big.
 
longview said:
I actually thought if they were serious about emissions, pickup trucks would be the best place to
start with hybrids and electrics. Electric motors have much better torque over the entire range
which is what trucks need. The frames and suspensions have the space and extra weight capability as well.
Changing a small commuter car from 35 to 50 mpg, is not that big a savings,
changing a pickup from 15 mpg to 30 mpg would be big.
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I think the technical hurdle for that is really the same one that plagues all electric vehicles: the batteries. They're heavy and expensive when compared to gasoline. There's something like 100 times the energy per kg in gasoline vs. a lithium-ion battery, and those batteries cost a lot. This makes it hard to scale electric vehicles up for longer ranges or larger power draws. The truck would necessarily require a much larger battery capacity, both for being heavier and also for having a much, much higher payload to consider. The difference between a Model S in a "light" load (one driver) vs. a "heavy" load (four people and some luggage) isn't all that big, but a "light" and "heavy" load for a pickup truck is a pretty large increase.

As an example:
Model S 70kWh AWD (240 mile range) - $75k.
Model S 90kWh AWD (288 mile range) - $88k.

Thirteen thousand dollars for a 48 mile range upgrade. (also your 0-60 time goes from 5.2 to 4.2. The "Ludicrous mode" models get down to 2.8. Holy ****.)
 
Deuce said:
I think the technical hurdle for that is really the same one that plagues all electric vehicles: the batteries. They're heavy and expensive when compared to gasoline. There's something like 100 times the energy per kg in gasoline vs. a lithium-ion battery, and those batteries cost a lot. This makes it hard to scale electric vehicles up for longer ranges or larger power draws. The truck would necessarily require a much larger battery capacity, both for being heavier and also for having a much, much higher payload to consider. The difference between a Model S in a "light" load (one driver) vs. a "heavy" load (four people and some luggage) isn't all that big, but a "light" and "heavy" load for a pickup truck is a pretty large increase.

As an example:
Model S 70kWh AWD (240 mile range) - $75k.
Model S 90kWh AWD (288 mile range) - $88k.

Thirteen thousand dollars for a 48 mile range upgrade. (also your 0-60 time goes from 5.2 to 4.2. The "Ludicrous mode" models get down to 2.8. Holy ****.)
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It would have to be a hybrid like a locomotive.
I could easily see 4 high torque hub motors with a mid size constant speed diesel engine generator.
The batteries would just be to accelerate, and absorb breaking.
True on demand four wheel drive.
 
X Factor said:
To some, you wanting to live past 70 makes you a smug and selfish asshole. :D It's funny how things change. My mom tells me that back in the day groceries were put in paper sacks, then that became uncool because think of the trees. Now paper bags are the environmentally sound choice and plastic is evil.
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You do know that trees for paper are now a renewable resource and most paper is now made from trees raised that way. It was not always so. Plastic is polluting our oceans and that is the problem with them now.

tumblr_lthrw3xEQ21qaitioo1_12804.png
 
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