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Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lands

Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
Not surprising at all, but as I have said before the anti-conservation nutjobs wanting to hand public lands over to the states are extremists and don't represent the majority of the citizens of those states.

https://www.coloradocollege.edu/stateoftherockies/conservationinthewest/
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If it were actually about 'conservation' I might agree.

It's about the power and control of the FedGov over the citizenry and using it for the benefit of the agencies involved.

Is The Bureau Of Land Management Attempting A Land Grab On The Red River? - Texas Monthly

The Bureau of Land Management is a Business, and It Wants Your Land | Grassroot Journal
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
Not surprising at all, but as I have said before the anti-conservation nutjobs wanting to hand public lands over to the states are extremists and don't represent the majority of the citizens of those states.

https://www.coloradocollege.edu/stateoftherockies/conservationinthewest/
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Except, the question is phrased in such a way to get that result. The majority of residents of these dates when surveyed answer no because the question explains that the state would have to assume all the costs of management, which would be considerable and beyond the ability of the states to fund.

And if you pay attention, The majority of voters in Montana believe the federal government is not properly representing their interest in managing those lands.
 
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Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

EMNofSeattle said:
Except, the question is phrased in such a way to get that result. The majority of residents of these dates when surveyed answer no because the question explains that the state would have to assume all the costs of management, which would be considerable and beyond the ability of the states to fund..
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Which is how it would work. It would be nothing but an industry giveaway to have the federal government pay the costs of the management of lands it transfers to the states. You are talking about the ultimate in corporate welfare to developers, mining, ranching, and timber industries.

Here is the thing, most people, regardless of whether they live in New York, Colorado, Wyoming, or Arkansas, want public lands managed for recreation and conservation as well as some commercial usage. The people that want that land transferred to the states simply see it as an economic resource and nothing more, and the majority of citizens will never see it that way.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
Which is how it would work. It would be nothing but an industry giveaway to have the federal government pay the costs of the management of lands it transfers to the states. You are talking about the ultimate in corporate welfare to developers, mining, ranching, and timber industries.

Here is the thing, most people, regardless of whether they live in New York, Colorado, Wyoming, or Arkansas, want public lands managed for recreation and conservation as well as some commercial usage. The people that want that land transferred to the states simply see it as an economic resource and nothing more, and the majority of citizens will never see it that way.
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It should be inverted, mainly Commerical use and some recreation, the fact is you're demanding recreational welfare. At the expense of schools and public safety in these areas. You do not pay anything near what leases, grazing fees and timber royalties paid. The original purpose of the Forest Service was resource management, not running two systems of national parks.

I see forest service land entirely as an economic resource, it should be making money not taking appropriated funds, in fact it would not even be corporate welfare, far from subsidy, my idea would make running USFS profitable for the government I don't care what the majority of Americans think, the majority of Americans have no operating knowledge on the topic, are short sighted, or only care about how things effect them in term. I guarantee if you were livig in Redding California or Shelby Montana circa the early 90s you would have the complete opposite opinion
 
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Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

EMNofSeattle said:
It should be inverted, mainly Commerical use and some recreation, the fact is you're demanding recreational welfare. At the expense of schools and public safety in these areas. You do not pay anything near what leases, grazing fees and timber royalties paid. The original purpose of the Forest Service was resource management, not running two systems of national parks.

I see forest service land entirely as an economic resource, it should be making money not taking appropriated funds, in fact it would not even be corporate welfare, far from subsidy, my idea would make running USFS profitable for the government I don't care what the majority of Americans think, the majority of Americans have no operating knowledge on the topic, are short sighted, or only care about how things effect them in term. I guarantee if you were livig in Redding California or Shelby Montana circa the early 90s you would have the complete opposite opinion
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Here is the problem, the majority of taxpayers see it differently. It is a value question. Most people are not nearly as ignorant of the subject as you think they are. The recreational value of forest lands and wilderness areas to communities more often than not exceeds their short term commercial value. Vacationers, Hunters, Fisherman, Backpackers, Cyclists, Trail Runners, Climbers and so on spend a lot more money in these states than you think they do.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

Jack Hays said:
An urban-rural breakdown of survey respondents would be interesting.
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An irrelevant being that those in urban areas pay the vast, vast majority of the taxes in a state.

Besides states like Montana and Wyoming don't have any real urban areas yet their residents still oppose the states taking over federal lands.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
An irrelevant being that those in urban areas pay the vast, vast majority of the taxes in a state.

Besides states like Montana and Wyoming don't have any real urban areas yet their residents still oppose the states taking over federal lands.
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You have missed the point. My interest was cultural, not political. And even in Wyoming and Montana there's a difference.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

Jack Hays said:
You have missed the point. My interest was cultural, not political. And even in Wyoming and Montana there's a difference.
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I would imagine the difference is largely between those who either live near or spend time on public lands and thus are in favor of keeping them under federal management as federal lands have some of the least restrictive recreational regulations on earth and are much less restrictive than state lands, and those who don't live near them or spend much time on them but have some ideological interest that results in them arguing from ignorance.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

federal lands would be suburban sprawl in no time flat if they became private. if they didn't, for-profit entities would bleed ranchers dry for grazing rights, and if the ranchers committed arson on those new private properties, they would be sued out of existence.

and that's the truth.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
I would imagine the difference is largely between those who either live near or spend time on public lands and thus are in favor of keeping them under federal management as federal lands have some of the least restrictive recreational regulations on earth and are much less restrictive than state lands, and those who don't live near them or spend much time on them but have some ideological interest that results in them arguing from ignorance.
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I suspect the difference is between the recreational users who visit, and the economic users who live on and work or graze the land.
 
Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

Jack Hays said:
I suspect the difference is between the recreational users who visit, and the economic users who live on and work or graze the land.
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The recreational value of most of those lands far exceeds the extraction value. Some of the biggest supporters of public lands are going to be the communities around them that benefit from all the outside money that hunters, fisherman, climbers, backpackers, hikers and so on bring in.

I don't think you get how most people that live near public land feel about it. I grew up on land bordering National Forest. Most people that grow up in areas with significant amounts of public land and wilderness look upon it with a sense of pride. They are proud of it and want it managed well and preserved. The people that just see dollar signs when they look at it are in a small minority.
 
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Re: Polling finds majority of westerners oppose states taking over federal public lan

SouthernDemocrat said:
The recreational value of most of those lands far exceeds the extraction value. Some of the biggest supporters of public lands are going to be the communities around them that benefit from all the outside money that hunters, fisherman, climbers, backpackers, hikers and so on bring in.

I don't think you get how most people that live near public land feel about it. I grew up on land bordering National Forest. Most people that grow up in areas with significant amounts of public land and wilderness look upon it with a sense of pride. They are proud of it and want it managed well and preserved. The people that just see dollar signs when they look at it are in a small minority.
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I know. Your colonial privileges are indeed comfortable.
 
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