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On the Status of Scientists' Emails

Jack Hays

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This is an issue in the news not long ago, and definitely falls in the "science meets politics" category. Where should the line be drawn?

On the status of scientists’ emails

Posted on January 13, 2016 | 134 comments
by Judith Curry
The issue of scientists’ emails is heating up.
Continue reading →

One would think that, following Climategate, climate scientists should expect that their emails might by made public, either through hacking or FOIA requests.
Nevertheless, more than 6 years later, the debate continues to rage over the sanctity (or not) of climate scientists’ emails.
Paul Thacker
The flag bearer for the latest push to make scientists’ emails available for public scrutiny is journalist Paul Thacker, who sits on the ‘warm’ side of the climate debate. A few days ago, Thacker wrote an op-ed in the NYTimes Scientists give up your emails. Excerpts:
NOAA has denied this request, and some within the scientific community have called Mr. Smith’s demands a witch hunt. But allowing agencies to keep secret the communications of scientists who work for the government sets a dangerous precedent. Some of what we know about abusive practices in science — whether it concerns tobacco, pharmaceuticals, chemicals or even climate change — has come from reading scientists’ emails.
Last August, a colleague and I wrote an article on the importance of transparency in science for one of the blogs of the science journal publisher PLOS. The argument was fairly simple: When research is paid for by the public, the public has a right to demand transparency and to have access to documents related to the research. This might strike most people as reasonable.
Our article promptly came under attack by several scientists and by the Union of Concerned Scientists. PLOS then removed our article from its site, though left the comments about it online. Never mind that the article had been peer-reviewed and promoted on social media by PLOS. In removing the article, PLOS explained that it “was not consistent with at least the spirit and intent of our community guidelines.”
About two weeks later, this newspaper, in a Page 1 article, underscored the importance of access to scientists’ emails. Based in part on emails that had been sought by U.S. Right to Know, The Times reported that university scientists had become part of “an inner circle of industry consultants, lobbyists and executives who devised strategy on how to block state efforts to mandate G.M.O. labeling.” Similar articles appeared in The Boston Globe and in Bloomberg Business.
As interest groups on both the left and right increasingly try to politicize the scientific process, there’s little question that there will be misuse of the Freedom of Information laws that some journalists and watchdog organizations have used to uncover wrongdoing.
Scientists have been harassed in the past and no doubt will continue to be harassed in the future, just like other public servants.
But the harassment argument should not be used as an excuse to bar access to scientific research that the public is paying for and has a legitimate interest in seeing.
Scientists who profess agreement with transparency only when it is on their terms are really not for transparency at all. The public should be alarmed. . . .


 
Climategate was a complete farce that was centered around people confusing --something that they could have cleared up in about a second after asking any professional scientist-- what is meant by the word, "trick." For instance, "there's a trick where you can exchange the integration order and the integral becomes solvable via trigonometric substitution" means that someone has thought very hard and come up with a clever way to solve a problem to complete their scientific analysis, it's the same as saying "The trick to buying cars is to do your research before you go to the dealership." "I'm going to trick the public with false data" is a different use of the word "trick" and shouldn't be confused --again, on really elementary grounds-- with something the former.

Children can work out the difference.

So no, before you even get started, I'm not interested in what new puerile farce the Right has cooked up with to deny the very real, very obvious existence of climate change. Stop denying facts that are very pertinent to your children's lives --it'll quite literally be good for their health, if not your own.
 
Climategate was a complete farce that was centered around people confusing --something that they could have cleared up in about a second after asking any professional scientist-- what is meant by the word, "trick." For instance, "there's a trick where you can exchange the integration order and the integral becomes solvable via trigonometric substitution" means that someone has thought very hard and come up with a clever way to solve a problem to complete their scientific analysis, it's the same as saying "The trick to buying cars is to do your research before you go to the dealership." "I'm going to trick the public with false data" is a different use of the word "trick" and shouldn't be confused --again, on really elementary grounds-- with something the former.

Children can work out the difference.

So no, before you even get started, I'm not interested in what new puerile farce the Right has cooked up with to deny the very real, very obvious existence of climate change. Stop denying facts that are very pertinent to your children's lives --it'll quite literally be good for their health, if not your own.

We will try to get along without your keen insights. You and I can discuss Climategate another time; it's actually not central to this discussion. What is important is that the New York Times, that bastion of rightist farce-mongering, published an op-ed calling for scientists to make their emails available. Vigorous discussion ensued.
 
We will try to get along without your keen insights. You and I can discuss Climategate another time; it's actually not central to this discussion. What is important is that the New York Times, that bastion of rightist farce-mongering, published an op-ed calling for scientists to make their emails available. Vigorous discussion ensued.

That's an idiotic suggestion.

They do realize, for starters, that many scientists work on proprietary things, where publishing their emails would literally be illegal? That has corporate impact, so that alone means that this proposal would be killed before it could ever meet the ire of scientists. Secondly, scientists work on many secret projects, sometimes for years, before they get it right and can publish. That means that having their emails and work aired would be a pretty devastating, considering that grants are given for original work in papers. If your research rivals get ahold of your research and beat you to the punch, your career could be over pretty quickly.

And that's ignoring the fact that there'd be some pretty unnecessary, obnoxious bureaucracy that would have to be put into place.


As for the one intelligent thing this person says,

"The argument was fairly simple: When research is paid for by the public, the public has a right to demand transparency and to have access to documents related to the research."

I agree, but the public should have access to:

1.) The scientific papers, freely available on the internet. (The arXiv is a pretty important paragon for this effort.)

2.) The public should have access to the data within a reasonable time of the formal acceptance for publication.​


Emails don't help you. Emails don't tell you anything about the research quality.
 
That's an idiotic suggestion.

They do realize, for starters, that many scientists work on proprietary things, where publishing their emails would literally be illegal? That has corporate impact, so that alone means that this proposal would be killed before it could ever meet the ire of scientists. Secondly, scientists work on many secret projects, sometimes for years, before they get it right and can publish. That means that having their emails and work aired would be a pretty devastating, considering that grants are given for original work in papers. If your research rivals get ahold of your research and beat you to the punch, your career could be over pretty quickly.

And that's ignoring the fact that there'd be some pretty unnecessary, obnoxious bureaucracy that would have to be put into place.


As for the one intelligent thing this person says,

"The argument was fairly simple: When research is paid for by the public, the public has a right to demand transparency and to have access to documents related to the research."

I agree, but the public should have access to:

1.) The scientific papers, freely available on the internet. (The arXiv is a pretty important paragon for this effort.)

2.) The public should have access to the data within a reasonable time of the formal acceptance for publication.​


Emails don't help you. Emails don't tell you anything about the research quality.

You can save your corporate ammunition. The author's exclusive topic is publicly supported research.
 
Emails don't help you. Emails don't tell you anything about the research quality.

Further in the OP:

Reason
Ronald Bailey of reason.org has an article Government-funded scientists: never hide anything from the public. Subtitle: Actually, science only works well when all scientists show their work. Punchline:
Earlier I was leery of possible FOIA abuse, but I now am persauded that the far greater danger is that researchers and government bureaucrats will use claims of harassment to hamper public debate and as excuses to hide information from the public that would embarrass them.
Union of Concerned Scientists
Michael Halpern of the Union of Concerned Scientists has a thoughtful response: The public interest lies in promoting transparency AND protecting scientists from harassment. Excerpts:
Nobody—not UCS, not any credible science advocate—argues that access to scientific data and methodology should be off limits (except in narrow circumstances such as patient privacy or national security), especially when it is publicly funded. And many of us argue that we should be able to see documents that show financial relationships and any strings attached to those relationships.
 
Confirmation bias in believing their rationalization doesn't make it a farce.

No, the fact that this segment of the public doesn't understand (willfully or otherwise) the difference between the word trick in the following two sentences:

A.) "A trick to get your car started in the cold is to use starting fluid."
B.) "A trick you can pull on someone is to put a woopie-cushion under their seat."​

is what makes it a farce. Both sentences used the word "trick," but the meaning of each word was different in each sentence; one means "a useful method" and the other means "to deceive." You'd sound like a total idiot if you thought you were literally deceiving your car into starting by using starting fluid, or that it was a useful method (for what?) to put a woopie-cushion under someone's seat.

Those who thought scientists meant to "deceive" the public are intellectually unserious people with a puerile ideological axe to grind. It's pretty embarrassing that some people have to pretend like they can't understand the paragraph I wrote above because of their ideological commitments.
 
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Further in the OP:

Your tactic of merely repeating (not even yourself, but) what other people wrote is a pretty astoundingly poor way to argue. At least, it's a pretty astoundingly poor if your real intent is to convince your opponent that they're wrong. Because if they've already read what was written and they held an objection upon first reading, repeating it again verbatim isn't a likely route to success for your cause.
 
Your tactic of merely repeating (not even yourself, but) what other people wrote is a pretty astoundingly poor way to argue. At least, it's a pretty astoundingly poor if your real intent is to convince your opponent that they're wrong. Because if they've already read what was written and they held an objection upon first reading, repeating it again verbatim isn't a likely route to success for your cause.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and it's clear you had not read the OP.
 
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and it's clear you had not read the OP.

That would be a very incorrect assumption, it wasn't particularly long, and I directly quoted from it in my second post on this thread. I can't see a sane reason to doubt that I've read the article. I didn't read the linked articles, but I read the OP.

And with that, I've said all that I wanted to on this thread.
 
Those who thought scientists meant to "deceive" the public are intellectually unserious people with a puerile ideological axe to grind. It's pretty embarrassing that some people have to pretend like they can't understand the paragraph I wrote above because of their ideological commitments.

Then can you show us the data and methodology that they will not?
 
We will try to get along without your keen insights. You and I can discuss Climategate another time; it's actually not central to this discussion. What is important is that the New York Times, that bastion of rightist farce-mongering, published an op-ed calling for scientists to make their emails available. Vigorous discussion ensued.

Making their emails available for science-deniers is like making one's long form birth certificate available to birthers: it's a waste of time and it wouldn't convince them anyway.
 
Making their emails available for science-deniers is like making one's long form birth certificate available to birthers: it's a waste of time and it wouldn't convince them anyway.

So much this.

Can I appreciate the transparency argument? Of course. But forced publication of internal communications will only yield additional confirmation bias as skeptics would pour through thousands of pages for a couple of quotes that can be taken out of context to prove a point they already believe - while simultaneously ignoring the 99.8% of the other emails or messages that support the alternative point of view.

Check and verify the data. Check and verify the research. Leave the communications alone.
 
So much this.

Can I appreciate the transparency argument? Of course. But forced publication of internal communications will only yield additional confirmation bias as skeptics would pour through thousands of pages for a couple of quotes that can be taken out of context to prove a point they already believe - while simultaneously ignoring the 99.8% of the other emails or messages that support the alternative point of view.

Check and verify the data. Check and verify the research. Leave the communications alone.

It's an obvious attempt to stymie the research.
 
Yes...the sad spin continues. Perhaps if the 'scientists' had not been expressing frustration that the data was showing the opposite of what they expected to find and that by using 'tricks' "to hide the decline" their work wouldnt have come into question. Perhaps had they just been forthcoming with their emails when legit public disclosure requests were made and perhaps had they not suggested to one another that they destroy their emails, they wouldnt look so corrupt and people wouldnt have to play twister to justify what the REALLY meant.

Its funny that a group that regularly expresses frustration that they cant find the increases and in fact struggle to explain the decline, seeking solutions in ocean temperatures, solar output, etc suddenly and magically use new and revised datasets and voila...there was never a 'hiatus'...tada! Perhaps if they werent going back and rewriting history with the 'correct' temperatures that (gasp) actually now show warming they wouldnt look corrupt. Then again...for a group and cause founded on lies, truth was the first casualty.

Then came the polar bears.
 
That's an idiotic suggestion.

They do realize, for starters, that many scientists work on proprietary things, where publishing their emails would literally be illegal? That has corporate impact, so that alone means that this proposal would be killed before it could ever meet the ire of scientists. Secondly, scientists work on many secret projects, sometimes for years, before they get it right and can publish. That means that having their emails and work aired would be a pretty devastating, considering that grants are given for original work in papers. If your research rivals get ahold of your research and beat you to the punch, your career could be over pretty quickly.

And that's ignoring the fact that there'd be some pretty unnecessary, obnoxious bureaucracy that would have to be put into place.


As for the one intelligent thing this person says,

"The argument was fairly simple: When research is paid for by the public, the public has a right to demand transparency and to have access to documents related to the research."

I agree, but the public should have access to:

1.) The scientific papers, freely available on the internet. (The arXiv is a pretty important paragon for this effort.)

2.) The public should have access to the data within a reasonable time of the formal acceptance for publication.​


Emails don't help you. Emails don't tell you anything about the research quality.

If the so called science is funded by the people, then the people should have unrestricted access to the data. If it's funded privately, then it's proprietary. If you mix the two, then it's all fair game.

Any notion that email communication have no bearing on research data is simply absurd.
 
Making their emails available for science-deniers is like making one's long form birth certificate available to birthers: it's a waste of time and it wouldn't convince them anyway.

Well then perhaps they can make their emails available to non-science deniers. You aren't maintaining that anyone who doesn't agree completely with AGW is a science denier, are you? After all, if the science and data is so crystal clear that any climatologist would agree with it, why wouldn't one want to have such emails made public?
 
Yes...the sad spin continues. Perhaps if the 'scientists' had not been expressing frustration that the data was showing the opposite of what they expected to find and that by using 'tricks' "to hide the decline" their work wouldnt have come into question.

Because you've never done a day of work in science in your life, one can forgive you for not understanding this, but:

When you do science, you will get incorrect results on a daily basis. Your code has typo; your probe isn't plugged in correctly; a cable came loose; you screwed up a calculation with a simple clerical error, to more subtle things like "I'm making a bad statistical assumption," etc.

So when scientists run into a problem that obviously breaks a known fact, their first assumption --precisely because they aren't intellectually dishonest idiots-- is not to say "Holy crap, I have proof that something that's been known for 50-250 years is false! Yippee! I'll get a Nobel Prize for sure!" and then rush out to publication of the results.

Their first response is annoyance; because they know that they have stop, sit down, and think about what they have screwed up --because 99.99999999% of the time, that's what's going on. In the case of the statistical analyses that they were doing, it sounded like the code they were using was generating an error, and so instead when they applied a different, equally acceptable method of data analysis, the programming error disappeared and they recovered known results. That's pretty crucially not data tampering. Scientists are obligated to very robustly test their data, and if you have any reason to doubt that some piece of code isn't working, it is imperative that they spend the time making sure that the code is working (in which case, the experiment will be famous) or find out why the code or method is failing you. Usually, it's just some highly mundane minutiae like "Oh my data doesn't converge in such-and-such way, so that mathematical tool is not longer applicable because my signal becomes dominated with numerical noise because of approximations in the code I'm using. I need to find a different code/method that doesn't generate that numerical noise. Let me now go spend a week consulting my statistics manual."


That is why the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, the Independent Climate Change Review, the International Science Assessment Panel, the Pennsylvania State University's two review panels on the subject, the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Commerce, and the National Science Foundation all unanimously agreed that there was no fraud or misconduct. Because the people on those panels have done a day of science in their lives.
 
FieldTheorist said:
That's an idiotic suggestion.

They do realize, for starters, that many scientists work on proprietary things, where publishing their emails would literally be illegal? That has corporate impact, so that alone means that this proposal would be killed before it could ever meet the ire of scientists. Secondly, scientists work on many secret projects, sometimes for years, before they get it right and can publish. That means that having their emails and work aired would be a pretty devastating, considering that grants are given for original work in papers. If your research rivals get ahold of your research and beat you to the punch, your career could be over pretty quickly.

And that's ignoring the fact that there'd be some pretty unnecessary, obnoxious bureaucracy that would have to be put into place.

As for the one intelligent thing this person says,

"The argument was fairly simple: When research is paid for by the public, the public has a right to demand transparency and to have access to documents related to the research."

I agree, but the public should have access to:

1.) The scientific papers, freely available on the internet. (The arXiv is a pretty important paragon for this effort.)

2.) The public should have access to the data within a reasonable time of the formal acceptance for publication.


Emails don't help you. Emails don't tell you anything about the research quality.

If the so called science is funded by the people, then the people should have unrestricted access to the data. If it's funded privately, then it's proprietary. If you mix the two, then it's all fair game.

Any notion that email communication have no bearing on research data is simply absurd.

*Ahem*
 
It's an obvious attempt to stymie the research.

Excuse me, but the entire population is being asked to change everything they have come to know. How they live, where they live, and what they use to live. In addition, the issue includes a solution that requires the largest transfer of wealth in human history.

In consideration of these undeniable facts, it is too F'ng much to ask that those "experts" creating the data that is leading to these actions be a bit forthcoming in the methods and discussions that have taken place in the course of arriving at these world changing conclusions?

What the heck is wrong with AGW'sts that they can't understand these simple realities?

We're talking about changing the human race, and some a-hole scientists and the agencies that employ them are holding out because some people might not be smart enough to understand what they have been saying and writing to each other? And that is acceptable, given what every human on this planet is going to be forced to do?

That is complete BS, and these arguments are colossally pathetic.
 
What the heck is wrong with AGW'sts that they can't understand these simple realities?

It's their first amendment right. Freedom of religion. They are the Jehovah Witness' of science.
 
Well then perhaps they can make their emails available to non-science deniers. You aren't maintaining that anyone who doesn't agree completely with AGW is a science denier, are you? After all, if the science and data is so crystal clear that any climatologist would agree with it, why wouldn't one want to have such emails made public?

Yes, everybody who doubts AGW by now is a science denier. Period. As for your second point, the point of having emails made public is to stymie research, nothing more.
 

I read your posts. Emails are as much a part of the communication package as any other communication between participants.

If the public pays, then the public plays. Your alleged rights to make the research confidential till you decide to make it public notwithstanding.
 
Yes, everybody who doubts AGW by now is a science denier. Period. As for your second point, the point of having emails made public is to stymie research, nothing more.

Ah, the gestapo approach.
 
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