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The rising sea level myth[W:565]

Re: The rising sea level myth

Threegoofs said:
Brace yourself for a blizzard of obfuscation and redirecting.
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Or he could just present the data the supports his case.

You are also free to do this.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Dittohead not! said:
The doctrines of the Church of Perpetual Denial are a steady source of amusement, for sure, but that parallel universe comment above did get me to thinking: Could it be that somewhere, perhaps just millimeters off in a fifth dimension, there might be a universe with a world just like Earth, but one in which global warming actually did stop 15 years ago? Could it be that, in that parallel universe, the scientists are wrong and the bloggers are right?

What a strange world that must be!

Perhaps on Earth2, stopping the consumption of sugar actually cures cancer. Wouldn't that be a great thing! No doubt Tarot cards actually do predict the future, fortune cookies really tell the fortunes of the inhabitants of Earth2, and rabbit's feet actually make the owner so lucky that casinos are going out of business and the rabbits actually grow new feet since they're lucky to still have three.
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What is being denied?
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Dittohead not! said:
No, that's on Earth3, in the other direction, where big government actually brings prosperity and the government can fix things like global warming.
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In the real world there seems to be very little that the government can fix. Right now, I'm having trouble thinking of anything except campaign efforts by the opposition.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Lord of Planar said:
Here is something to show you that your statement is incorrect:

seaice.anomaly.arctic.png


seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png


Why is the southern ice extent actually growing as the norther in shrinking?

link:
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Climate change doesn't happen uniformly. The ice around Antarctica is growing, but the ice on the continent is shrinking because it's losing thickness. The total volume is either staying even or shrinking.

Twisting data to suit your purpose isn't flattering.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

zgoldsmith23 said:
Well, since you brought it up - the AGW crowd is generally a more scientifically-driven and scientifically-motivated group and, if there's one thing we can all agree is not scientific, it's Christianity. It could also be said that, we know this life exists (unless you're a solipsist) whereas there's no evidence for an afterlife (hell).
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I think what he meant was that "if you believe in things that you don't understand, you'll suffer. Superstition..."

There is very little difference between Christianity, AGW Science or any other belief driven activity.

I don't see the evidence that there is any more science attached to AGW Science than there is to Christianity. Or volcano worship.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

zgoldsmith23 said:
Well, since you brought it up - the AGW crowd is generally a more scientifically-driven and scientifically-motivated group and, if there's one thing we can all agree is not scientific, it's Christianity. It could also be said that, we know this life exists (unless you're a solipsist) whereas there's no evidence for an afterlife (hell).
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Actually, AGW Science and Pagan religions are almost perfect parallels.

Any occurrence in the real world is presented as evidence that the dogma is correct. Any storm, drought, warmth, cold or anything at all is proof.

There are actions committed by people that are good and actions that are bad. Bad actions are cited as the cause for fearsome and terrible retribution that will be visited upon us if those actions are not improved.

There are people who are good and people who are bad due to the righteous path they follow or ignore. However, we will ALL be punished if the actions of any are bad.

The only thing that's missing is throwing a virgin into a volcano. I suppose throwing a Christian under the bus will do in this case, though.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

zgoldsmith23 said:
AGW isn't a religion as there's no supernatural element. :shrug:
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You think that CO2 acting in one way one decade and in a different way in a different decade is natural?
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Threegoofs said:
I think science has had a pretty good track record the last couple hundred years.

I guess if you pretend the media is science and you discount the 30-40 years of fairly accurate predictions regarding climate, glaciers, arctic data, and ocean acidification, you're right that science has never gotten it right.

My guess is though, when you go to the doctor, and trust in his godlike powers of healing, you will want the best evidence based medicine he has, rather than competing evidence from newspapers and blogs.
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There can be warming with absolutely no Anthropogenic cause. It has happened before and will certainly happen again.

You need to provide the link to the Anthropogenic cause to prove your case. A good explanation of why CO2, as the primary drover of climate, warms sometimes and not others would be a good place to start.

You are free to proceed.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

grip said:
Climate change doesn't happen uniformly
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The plain fact is we have very little understanding of what causes climate change be it uniformly or otherwise. We just know its happening all the time and always has

. The ice around Antarctica is growing, but the ice on the continent is shrinking because it's losing thickness. The total volume is either staying even or shrinking.
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And there is a wealth of evidence from ice cores from both poles that this has been a regular occurence long before capitalism arrived

Twisting data to suit your purpose isn't flattering
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How is simply presenting the data somehow twisting it ? It says what it says. If you dont like what it says then thats too bad
 
The rising sea level myth

code1211 said:
The sites to which this links are the ones that actually gather the data.

You know, data, that stuff you never want to see.

This is actually agenda driven, but on your side. The interactive part, though, is scientific data which you seem to strongly dislike.
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Yeah...see, I don't want to see selected data. And frankly, there is so much of it, and its extremely complicated, that no one who isn't a climate scientist or affiliated with climate science can put it all together into a coherent whole.

That's why I don't want to see your isolated graphs, your ice cores from a single region, your temperature graphs that ignore ocean heat, your playing with the slope of a line , etc.

I want to know where the people who collect that data and analyze that data stand. Not the opinion of a blog who pre-supposes an outcome and picks at data.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

flogger said:
The plain fact is we have very little understanding of what causes climate change be it uniformly or otherwise. We just know its happening all the time and always has
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Climate change is a natural fluctuation in temperatures and gases. I don't think there's much we can do about it even if we're helping to accelerate it. We can't logistically change everything suddenly for the better. Though we will have increasing natural disasters either way.


And there is a wealth of evidence from ice cores from both poles that this has been a regular occurence long before capitalism arrived
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Who said anything about capitalism and what the hell does that have to do with anything. Modernization would've occurred regardless of the monetary system that existed. The planet goes thru global temperature shifts, so what?


How is simply presenting the data somehow twisting it ? It says what it says. If you dont like what it says then thats too bad
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Stating that the Antarctic ice sheet is increasing in size but not mentioning that it's overall volume is the same from losing thickness is purposely misleading to make a point. That's called twisting the data and if you don't like that too bad.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

OMG! Code got something right! Just imagine what might happen next!

images
code1211 said:
In the real world there seems to be very little that the government can fix. Right now, I'm having trouble thinking of anything except campaign efforts by the opposition.
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Re: The rising sea level myth

code1211 said:
That is what I asked you to look at.

What do you see?
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View attachment 67149194

Text ...
When averaged globally, these maps provide 10-day estimates of global mean sea level with an accuracy of roughly 4-5 mm. Over the last 13 years, observations of changes in these estimates have shown a rise in global mean sea level of 3.2 ± 0.4 mm/year (Figure 1), after taking into account the glacial isostatic adjustment correction (of -0.3 mm/yr) due to the small deformation of oceans basins since last deglaciation.
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Re: The rising sea level myth

grip said:
Climate change doesn't happen uniformly. The ice around Antarctica is growing, but the ice on the continent is shrinking because it's losing thickness. The total volume is either staying even or shrinking.

Twisting data to suit your purpose isn't flattering.
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Believe as you wish. As I pointed out earlier, studies of sheet ice, can be found to support both. I would like you to consider three articles. The first is linked to the image:

Figure 2. Elevation change of the Antarctic ice sheet, 1992–2003:
:
4. Conclusions
We show that 72% of the Antarctic ice sheet is gaining 27 +/- 29 Gt yr-1, a sink of
ocean mass sufficient to lower global sea levels by 0.08 mm yr-1.

---

Even allowing a +/- 30 Gt yr-1 fluctuation in
unsurveyed areas, they provide a range of -35 to +115 Gt yr-1. This range
equates to a sea level contribution of -0.3 to +0.1 mm yr-1 and so Antarctica has
provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise.
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As for sea ice extent, if you read this article, you should agree that the same factor of wind causing the ice shelves in Antarctica to grow, is causing more precipitation on the continent as well.

Wind-driven trends in Antarctic sea-ice drift

As for saying the shelf ice is growing or shrinking in volume, a recent study has the volume at 26.54 million cubic meters. We need more of this same study to see the actual trend, and other studies probably all claim increases or decreases withing the noise margins:

Bedmap2: improved ice bed, surface and thickness datasets for Antarctica
 
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Re: The rising sea level myth

Papa bull said:
Climatology isn't any more of a hard science than psychology. It's all theory and to date, very little of the theory has been correct. It will take centuries to develop this "science"not it can be developed at all. We can't predict what the weather will bring tomorrow with any certainty so how in the hell do you expect to predict the climate in ten years with any greater expectation of accuracy.
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Ah, I see someone is not familiar with sciences. Hey, Papa bull, you know nearly all biology is "all theory?" I don't see you disputing germ theory or Evolution (at least not yet).

code1211 said:
I think what he meant was that "if you believe in things that you don't understand, you'll suffer. Superstition..."

There is very little difference between Christianity, AGW Science or any other belief driven activity.

I don't see the evidence that there is any more science attached to AGW Science than there is to Christianity. Or volcano worship.
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Well, that might have to do with you wearing sunglasses indoors if you catch my drift. Your ignorance of the scientific world is not evidence things aren't happening.

code1211 said:
Actually, AGW Science and Pagan religions are almost perfect parallels.

Any occurrence in the real world is presented as evidence that the dogma is correct. Any storm, drought, warmth, cold or anything at all is proof.
Click to expand...

Speaking in absolutes again. To my knowledge, no climatologist or any other climate scientist has claimed "any storm, drought, warmth, cold or anything at all" is evidence for AGW.

There are actions committed by people that are good and actions that are bad.
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Mere opinion. I disagree.

Bad actions are cited as the cause for fearsome and terrible retribution that will be visited upon us if those actions are not improved.
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Evidence for this?

There are people who are good and people who are bad
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Again, mere opinion. What one considers "bad" is not universal.

[D]ue to the righteous path they follow or ignore. However, we will ALL be punished if the actions of any are bad.
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Odd. What is "bad?" I drive over the speed limit to work every day and am, thus, breaking the law. Is this "bad?" I have yet to be punished, though.

The only thing that's missing is throwing a virgin into a volcano. I suppose throwing a Christian under the bus will do in this case, though.
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I'm not sure where you're getting this from, however, why would you say throw a Christian under the bus? That'd be a perfectly good waste of lion food. :lol:

code1211 said:
You think that CO2 acting in one way one decade and in a different way in a different decade is natural?
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Is it? Is it not? Why are you jumping to a supernatural conclusion? Perhaps to fulfill a confirmation bias? Probably.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

code1211 said:
No, I'm not.

I'm also not a fundamentalist Christian. Are there additional slurs you may want to throw my way?

I am pretty much a disinterested observer of this wondering why the change of plus 0.7 degrees in 2000 years is termed by our President to be the greatest threat to our world when there is war all around us, violence, a burgeoning debt, corruption as far and deep as you care to look, injustices of all varieties, a failing educational system, rampant poverty and plagues all over the world.

So, as a believer in the Moon landing, perhaps you can explain what is the proof of the Anthropogenic cause of Climate Change and why that cause is not a consistent driver of climate?
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http://www.debatepolitics.com/envir...-rising-sea-level-myth-20.html#post1061953363

This post was a response to your post.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Threegoofs said:
Yeah...see, I don't want to see selected data. And frankly, there is so much of it, and its extremely complicated, that no one who isn't a climate scientist or affiliated with climate science can put it all together into a coherent whole.

That's why I don't want to see your isolated graphs, your ice cores from a single region, your temperature graphs that ignore ocean heat, your playing with the slope of a line , etc.

I want to know where the people who collect that data and analyze that data stand. Not the opinion of a blog who pre-supposes an outcome and picks at data.
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Good. The less you know, the happier you will be.

May your ignorance bring you bliss.

However, when those who present actual science to answer the impressions you present, you should refrain from accusing them of not presenting science. You obviously do not know the difference between science and opinion and cannot explain why you FEEL you are right.

When you find some actual proof to support your case, be sure to let everyone know.

So far, nobody has been able to come up with it.
 
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Re: The rising sea level myth

grip said:
Climate change is a natural fluctuation in temperatures and gases. I don't think there's much we can do about it even if we're helping to accelerate it. We can't logistically change everything suddenly for the better. Though we will have increasing natural disasters either way.




Who said anything about capitalism and what the hell does that have to do with anything. Modernization would've occurred regardless of the monetary system that existed. The planet goes thru global temperature shifts, so what?




Stating that the Antarctic ice sheet is increasing in size but not mentioning that it's overall volume is the same from losing thickness is purposely misleading to make a point. That's called twisting the data and if you don't like that too bad.
Click to expand...



Do you have a link that supports your assertion that the Antarctic ice mass is growing thinner?
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

Dittohead not! said:
OMG! Code got something right! Just imagine what might happen next!

images
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This has been a pretty steady drumbeat through most of what i write and yet you disagree with most of what I write.

Do you misunderstand what I write or what you think?
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

code1211 said:
I didn't ask what they told you. I asked what you see.
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I saw no reason to change the quoted part of what they wrote.

I've calculated least squares adjustments and errors in data, by hand for many years before we got a computer program to do it for us. Maybe you lack experience looking at real world measurements? I spent the last 20 years of my profession gathering and analyzing it.
 
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Re: The rising sea level myth

zgoldsmith23 said:
Ah, I see someone is not familiar with sciences. Hey, Papa bull, you know nearly all biology is "all theory?" I don't see you disputing germ theory or Evolution (at least not yet).



Well, that might have to do with you wearing sunglasses indoors if you catch my drift. Your ignorance of the scientific world is not evidence things aren't happening.



Speaking in absolutes again. To my knowledge, no climatologist or any other climate scientist has claimed "any storm, drought, warmth, cold or anything at all" is evidence for AGW.



Mere opinion. I disagree.



Evidence for this?



Again, mere opinion. What one considers "bad" is not universal.



Odd. What is "bad?" I drive over the speed limit to work every day and am, thus, breaking the law. Is this "bad?" I have yet to be punished, though.



I'm not sure where you're getting this from, however, why would you say throw a Christian under the bus? That'd be a perfectly good waste of lion food. :lol:



Is it? Is it not? Why are you jumping to a supernatural conclusion? Perhaps to fulfill a confirmation bias? Probably.
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The basis of AGW Science is that mankind is producing CO2 and changing the perfect balance in nature which existed in pre-industrial times. Changing this balance has created horrible problems to date and these problems will grow worse and soon will blossom into catastrophic and world changing events including drought, sea level rise, famine and world chaos.

The code of morality changes from one religion to another. In the church of Global warming, any CO2 emission is considered to be bad and the greater the emission is, the greater is the sin that is committed and the greater and swifter will be the punishment that it brings. The proclamation, unsupported by science, is that any incremental increase in CO2 will produce the equal rise that the previous incremental increase did and so on into the future.

As in all religions, the motivation of the sinner can augment or diminish the sin. So the rich who emit CO2 are more evil than the poor who do so because the poor are not afforded free will. They are victims of the rich and swept along in the wake of the rich. If you must emit CO2 to do good works, like the old car driving voters to vote, that is okay even though it's unfortunate.

Those who are members of this religion routinely attack members of the nearby religions, in this case, Christianity. This, too, is common among religions. Very Mohammed-like in their hatred.

The parallels go on and on. It's comical. If you are uncomfortable talking about religion in this sense, then you can compare it to any other parochial loyalty like your high school or college or hometown or home state or nationalism. They are all quite similar and all very much based on the same foundations.

What makes this comical is that the AGW proponents don't see that they are doing what they are doing. They think there is a sound reason for their belief. Just like Christians.
 
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Re: The rising sea level myth

MoSurveyor said:
I saw no reason to change the quoted part of what they wrote.

I've calculated least squares adjustments and errors in data, by hand for many years before we got a computer program to do it for us. Maybe you lack experience looking at real world measurements? I spent the last 20 years of my profession gathering and analyzing it.
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The chart we are talking about only goes back to about 1994 and stops back in 2005.

The diagonal straight line implies that the rise is consistent, but it's not.

When the averaged line turns blue, it peaks in about 2002. no other subsequent peak is higher and the trend seems to go flat.

That is what I see. I also note that the data is adjusted to remove what the author feels is not conducive to a good representation.

Finally, I see that the data seems to end just about the time the Argo Array of Buoys gets deployed. The capabilities of these buoys include the relay of the exact GPS data including elevation and these would seem to be a great method to mine data on the actual, real time sea level around the world.
 
Re: The rising sea level myth

code1211 said:
The chart we are talking about only goes back to about 1994 and stops back in 2005.
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code1211 said:
Finally, I see that the data seems to end just about the time the Argo Array of Buoys gets deployed. The capabilities of these buoys include the relay of the exact GPS data including elevation and these would seem to be a great method to mine data on the actual, real time sea level around the world.
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The first satellite was launched in the last half of 1992 and the data goes back to 1993, the first full year of measurement. The paper was published in 2006 so I wouldn't expect any data after 2005.

You are the one that referenced this, not me. You picked an old study, not me. Now you are whining about your own reference because it doesn't contain data that was collected after it was published. This is why I never read Denier blogs and ignore most of the junk you Deniers dredge up. You cited good data and have now created your own little fantasy of cover-up and conspiracy based on our own imagination.

Good job! You've revealed an excellent piece of evidence of Denial Conspiracy Theory creation at it's finest.



code1211 said:
The diagonal straight line implies that the rise is consistent, but it's not.

When the averaged line turns blue, it peaks in about 2002. no other subsequent peak is higher and the trend seems to go flat.
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There is a spike in mid-2002. A spike in data does not mean the trend "peaked" at that time. That's one of the main reasons I don't read Denier blogs. Deniers consistently get this wrong. Real world data hardly ever follows a graded course. It usually bounces up and down and has to be mathematically (statistically) analysed to find the actual trend.


code1211 said:
I also note that the data is adjusted to remove wh at the author feels is not conducive to a good representation.
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And you can see that from the graph?!? LOL!

Specifically what data are you talking about?
 
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