Thread: Are electric cars green

Originally Posted by the_recruit

I'm not a fan of hybrids, but this article is garbage. First of all, the article you quoted is actually from a college newspaper op ed piece, not from any respected publication. The article is based on a paper (titled Dust to Dust) written by CNW, a marketing firm - not a science organization, that is partially funded by, you guessed it, automobile manufacturers. Gee, no conflict of interest there. The paper is 5 or 6 years old and its dodgy claims and methods have been debunked many times. In fact, in response to the paper's bs several independent firms have conducted their own independent analysis of the same comparison and have all reached the opposite conclusion.

"Even the most cursory look reveals serious biases and flaws: the average Hummer H1 is assumed to travel 379,000 miles and last for 35 years, while the average Prius is assumed to last only 109,000 miles over less than 12 years. These selective and unsupported assumptions distort the final results. A quick re-analysis with peer-reviewed data leads to completely opposite conclusions: the life-cycle energy requirements of hybrids and smaller cars are far lower than Hummers and other large SUVs"

Pacific Institute




But since these facts don't jive with your preconceived world view about "greenies" and "warmers", you'll simply ignore them.

You want to focus on that instead of the pollution part? I wonder why. The pollution caused by the batteries is a deal killer all by itself without nitpicking the numbers for MPG and life of a car.

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

You want to focus on that instead of the pollution part? I wonder why. The pollution caused by the batteries is a deal killer all by itself without nitpicking the numbers for MPG and life of a car.

I don't need to. The very article you cite as a reference already does a fine job of proving you wrong.

HowStuffWorks "Does hybrid car production waste offset hybrid benefits?"

"But do the environmental impacts of hybrid vehicle production outweigh the long-term benefits of driving a cleaner running automobile? That answer is a resounding "no.""

In fact, that's actually the whole point of the article (which somehow seems to have gone completely over your head): that, although the manufacturing process of hybrids results in more pollution than does the manufacturing process of traditional automobiles, hybrid cars still end up being greener in the long run. All you hear is "...manufacturing of hybrids results in more pollution..."

And then you're all like "SEE! I TOLD YOU WARMERS! MORE POLLUTION! IT SAYS RIGHT HERE!"

I know it's difficult for you, sawyer, but when you're reading something you really need to read the WHOLE sentence. Trace along with your finger and mouth the words quietly to yourself if it helps.

Originally Posted by the_recruit

I don't need to. The very article you cite as a reference already does a fine job of proving you wrong.

HowStuffWorks "Does hybrid car production waste offset hybrid benefits?"

"But do the environmental impacts of hybrid vehicle production outweigh the long-term benefits of driving a cleaner running automobile? That answer is a resounding "no.""

In fact, that's actually the whole point of the article (which somehow seems to have gone completely over your head): that, although the manufacturing process of hybrids results in more pollution than does the manufacturing process of traditional automobiles, hybrid cars still end up being greener in the long run. All you hear is "...manufacturing of hybrids results in more pollution..."

And then you're all like "SEE! I TOLD YOU WARMERS! MORE POLLUTION! IT SAYS RIGHT HERE!"

I know it's difficult for you, sawyer, but when you're reading something you really need to read the WHOLE sentence. Trace along with your finger and mouth the words quietly to yourself if it helps.

And there is the difference between you and me; you let someone else make your opinion for you. I look at the facts and come to my own conclusion, I am not a sheep. As for hybrid cars being ever so slightly greener, maybe maybe not but if you read the article with open eyes you see they are most definitely not nonpolluting. If they are very slightly less polluting than traditional automobiles driving one does nothing for the environment but hey, if driving one assuages your guilt, be my guest.

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

And there is the difference between you and me; you let someone else make your opinion for you. I look at the facts and come to my own conclusion, I am not a sheep. As for hybrid cars being ever so slightly greener, maybe maybe not but if you read the article with open eyes you see they are most definitely not nonpolluting. If they are very slightly less polluting than traditional automobiles driving one does nothing for the environment but hey, if driving one assuages your guilt, be my guest.

Your conclusion is not supported by the facts you've presented.

But do the environmental impacts of hybrid vehicle production outweigh the long-term benefits of driving a cleaner running automobile? That answer is a resounding "no." If you drive both a conventional and hybrid car for 160,000 miles (257,495 kilometers), the conventional vehicle requires far more energy to operate and emits far more greenhouse gases over its lifetime, significantly canceling out any imbalance during the production stage [source: Burnham et al].

So, if just deciding you don't like what the facts say makes you feel better about your beliefs, be my guest.

P.S. Find me one person on this planet that has ever said a hybrid car is "nonpolluting." You know that isn't the argument, but you're acting as though it is. Why is that?

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

And there is the difference between you and me; you let someone else make your opinion for you.

What you really mean is that you don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

I look at the facts and come to my own conclusion, I am not a sheep.

What about the fact that hybrid cars are in fact greener than traditional cars, as concluded in the links you and I provided? That fact doesn't seem to be influencing your "conclusions".

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

As for hybrid cars being ever so slightly greener, maybe maybe not but if you read the article with open eyes you see they are most definitely not nonpolluting.

Of course they're not nonpolluting. No one has ever claimed hybrids are nonpolluting. They are LESS polluting.

Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon

If they are very slightly less polluting than traditional automobiles driving one does nothing for the environment but hey, if driving one assuages your guilt, be my guest.

I don't drive a hybrid and I don't want to.

Originally Posted by the_recruit

Of course they're not nonpolluting. No one has ever claimed hybrids are nonpolluting. They are LESS polluting.

For a mere fraction of the premiums being payed by people wanting to feel smug about driving around in these pointless statements of moral superiority over the rest of us . Wouldnt it make more sense to clean up energy production and manufacturing processes involved in making lean burn fossil fuel vehicles instead ? Many of these cars already have better mpg than the likes of the Prius.

Originally Posted by flogger

For a mere fraction of the premiums being payed by people wanting to feel smug about driving around in these pointless statements of moral superiority over the rest of us . Wouldnt it make more sense to clean up energy production and manufacturing processes involved in making lean burn fossil fuel vehicles instead ? Many of these cars already have better mpg than the likes of the Prius.

Oh quit with the persecution complex. South Park is not an accurate representation of reality. A Prius, assuming you drive it enough, ends up using less energy than a conventional car. If people want to feel good about that, why do you care? "Smug" "moral superiority." Listen to yourself. Where do you get the idea? You just see someone driving a Prius and assume they see themselves as better than you?

The Prius is a lean burning fossil fuel car, so I'm not sure what you're referring to there. Yes, we should clean up energy production. Every time I suggest that, though, some of these guys around here scream about socialism and envirnazi greenie communists.

Originally Posted by Deuce

Oh quit with the persecution complex. South Park is not an adequate representation of reality

.

I've never seen South Park

A Prius, assuming you drive it enough, ends up using less energy than a conventional car.

BS There are many cars out there get better mpg than a Prius even were it driven by a nun. Also because they require no exotic materials from the four corners of the globe for thier powerplants thier manufacture is far more eco friendly too

Listen to yourself. Where do you get the idea? You just see someone driving a Prius and assume they see themselves as better than you?

Because they believe that they are . Why else pay a large premium to drive an ugly less efficient less practical car then you could do, other than to advertise that fact.

The Prius is a lean burning fossil fuel car, so I'm not sure what you're referring to there.

Yes but there are many non hybrids that deliver far better mpg however you drive them. Vehicles like the current Ford 'Blue Motion' spring to mind here.

Yes, we should clean up energy production. Every time I suggest that, though, some of these guys around here scream about socialism and envirnazi greenie communists

Not from me you wont. Cleaning up current energy production rather than replacing it with unaffordable alternatives is the only option for the future in my view

Originally Posted by the_recruit

I don't need to. The very article you cite as a reference already does a fine job of proving you wrong.

HowStuffWorks "Does hybrid car production waste offset hybrid benefits?"

"But do the environmental impacts of hybrid vehicle production outweigh the long-term benefits of driving a cleaner running automobile? That answer is a resounding "no.""

In fact, that's actually the whole point of the article (which somehow seems to have gone completely over your head): that, although the manufacturing process of hybrids results in more pollution than does the manufacturing process of traditional automobiles, hybrid cars still end up being greener in the long run. All you hear is "...manufacturing of hybrids results in more pollution..."

And then you're all like "SEE! I TOLD YOU WARMERS! MORE POLLUTION! IT SAYS RIGHT HERE!"

I know it's difficult for you, sawyer, but when you're reading something you really need to read the WHOLE sentence. Trace along with your finger and mouth the words quietly to yourself if it helps.

Yeah, but the study doesn't appear to take into account that the environmental nightmare (production and disposal) that is the battery for the Prius has to be replaced every two years. At a high cost not only to the consumer, but the environment.

Also, the Prius, and other hybrids could easily be greener. There is no reason their generators should run on gasoline. They should all be diesel with SVO/WVO conversion or CNG/propane.

I'd like to see them do the same comparison between the Prius and a CNG/propane powered vehicle or a diesel running bio-diesel or SVO/WVO.

Originally Posted by the_recruit

What you really mean is that you don't let facts get in the way of your opinion.



What about the fact that hybrid cars are in fact greener than traditional cars, as concluded in the links you and I provided? That fact doesn't seem to be influencing your "conclusions".



Of course they're not nonpolluting. No one has ever claimed hybrids are nonpolluting. They are LESS polluting.




I don't drive a hybrid and I don't want to.

What it boils down too is the hybrid uses less gas so it requires less oil but on the other hand it requires more mines and those mines are extremely polluting. Its a wash at best.