Abolish the Department of Education, and public schools. - Page 3

Kernel Sanders · 10-02-08, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

I answered how these schools would receive their money, please refer to the first posting.

I just addressed that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders

The massive education budget of the government represents the costs not the profits. In order to be profitable, private schools would need to receive all the money that we already spend on education, and then some. The only place you have proposed that they get money is from the government. Is the government both covering their costs and gifting them a profit? If not where do the companies running the schools make their money?

And where would that money come from?

Quote:

1. Take the money each district spends per child now...the school would get that much money.

That covers costs, nothing more. The public school system does not turn a profit, and if you just have the government pay the exact same amount of money to private corporations they will not turn a profit. And if they do somehow turn a profit, why would the government not just cut the education budget?

And I still want an answer to this question. What happens if providing school to a certain area is just plain unprofitable and no private corporation wants to touch it?

Korimyr the Rat · 10-02-08, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

To an extent, you are correct, the lazy, the ignorant, and the stupid parents out there would do nothing different. But I don't think you give the "consumers" enough credit. With the Internet and other resources, I think you'd see a positive move towards active parenting again.

Personally, I think the problem is that parents do not consider the public schools to be a form of public welfare-- they consider it the primarily the government's responsibility to ensure their childrens' education, and thus parents who are capable of either homeschooling or paying for private school do not. Public schooling should always be available for people who cannot provide for their own childrens' education, but it should not be considered either the default or the preferred means of educating children.

Children whose parents consider their education to be their responsibility, whether their children are enrolled in public or private school or homeschooled, do remarkably better than the children of parents who consider it to be the school's responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

Get rid of the federal Department of Education, each State would set it's own standards. I really believe what's good for Virginia, or Texas is not the same as for Floridia or California. Let the people, not Washington make decisions.

I don't believe that what's good for Virginia or Texas schoolchildren is different than what is good for Florida or California schoolchildren. I think people in Texas and Virginia have different ideas about what is good for schoolchildren-- ideas that I consider frankly to be moronic.

I agree with allowing the people to make their own decisions regarding their childrens' education, which is why I support homeschooling in all fifty States and consider this latest Ninth Circus ruling to be an abomination. When it comes to the government schools, however, the curriculum and the methods should be set by the government-- preferably with as little input as possible from people who consider banning books to be beneficial to the moral and intellectual character of youth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuamort

I can see it now, private businesses running education. "Today's dietary lesson is brought to you by the makers of Cheetos™."

Your riposte might have more sting to it, if we did not already have exclusivity and advertising contracts with the public schools. We've already got many of the symptoms of the kind of program that MrVicchio is proposing-- with none of the potential benefits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuamort

The libertarian position on education is the one major sticking point I have that keeps me from joining their ranks.

I actually was a Libertarian, until I discovered that any departure from Party orthodoxy was disallowed-- and that they did not consider public education to be a part of the "minimal necessary government" envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

Despite claiming to be the party of Jefferson.

Kernel Sanders · 10-02-08, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat

Personally, I think the problem is that parents do not consider the public schools to be a form of public welfare-- they consider it the primarily the government's responsibility to ensure their childrens' education, and thus parents who are capable of either homeschooling or paying for private school do not. Public schooling should always be available for people who cannot provide for their own childrens' education, but it should not be considered either the default or the preferred means of educating children.

Children whose parents consider their education to be their responsibility, whether their children are enrolled in public or private school or homeschooled, do remarkably better than the children of parents who consider it to be the school's responsibility.

I don't believe that what's good for Virginia or Texas schoolchildren is different than what is good for Florida or California schoolchildren. I think people in Texas and Virginia have different ideas about what is good for schoolchildren-- ideas that I consider frankly to be moronic.

I agree with allowing the people to make their own decisions regarding their childrens' education, which is why I support homeschooling in all fifty States and consider this latest Ninth Circus ruling to be an abomination. When it comes to the government schools, however, the curriculum and the methods should be set by the government-- preferably with as little input as possible from people who consider banning books to be beneficial to the moral and intellectual character of youth.

Your riposte might have more sting to it, if we did not already have exclusivity and advertising contracts with the public schools. We've already got many of the symptoms of the kind of program that MrVicchio is proposing-- with none of the potential benefits.

I actually was a Libertarian, until I discovered that any departure from Party orthodoxy was disallowed-- and that they did not consider public education to be a part of the "minimal necessary government" envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

Despite claiming to be the party of Jefferson.

I think widespread homeschooling is a very bad idea. Once you know how to read and do basic math, most of the benefit from school is social. As informative as AP Euro was, the knowledge is not exactly essential to my every day life. The development that school children undergo is much more important than the basic, generalized facts they teach you in school

MrVicchio · 10-02-08, 05:55 PM

Korimyr the Rat,

I'm sorry you feel Texas and Virginia have moronic standards, but that's why our nation is made up of self governing states, and not just "The ?American State". I am a proponent of states rights.

Home schooling isn't a bad thing, but not everyone who would like too can afford to.

The Libertarian sentiments are admirable, but I agree the actual execution of the "Libnertarian" party leaves much to be desired.

Bodhisattva · 10-02-08, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

If I could do one thing, one thing to America this would be it.

Now, while the trolls go off and post their idiocy without reading further lets take a moment, those of you wishing to read what I would do, to remember, keep it civil.

Okay, on with the thread:

1. Take the money each district spends per child now. Say, for argument sakes it's 10k a kid per year (I'm using a made up number shush you) so for each child enrolled, the school would get that much money.

2. Each School would be then given over to a private company.

3. Each School would have to have their curriculum posted on line, and available on request to any parent or potential students guardian.

4. Each School would have to list publicly ALL EXPENSES.

5. Each School would post its student’s grades, test scores and teachers education levels.

6. The markets would determine success and failure. If a school is unpopular, parents won’t send their kids there, no kids means no money.

7. NO BUSINESS running a school would be allowed, in any shape, fashion or form to lobby, gift, or provide money, or resources to political candidates or elected officials. EVER.

8. Schools could teach, whatever they want. It’s the parents decision what their children learn, and it is up to the parents to be informed.

9. Teachers Unions would be abolished and barred except in those states that allow unions by law. (even then I would try to find a way to ban them)

10. Parents would be barred from giving to, or paying schools to let their kids attend.

That’s it in a nutshell. The public school system is disaster, the biggest reason is the lack of competition and adults just handing their kids over to the “schools” to teach them. Make parents get involved!

This sounds almost exactly like the system that is in place now, minus the private part... with a little anarchy mixed in.

There is nothing wrong with Public Schools.
The teachers that teach there, for the most part, are great. Professional and very well educated.

The issue lies with student motivation and lack of parental involvment.

Have you researched this issue or is this just a knee jerk reaction?

Regarding quality of teachers:

Prospective teachers who took state teacher licensing exams from 2002 to 2005 scored higher on SATs in high school and earned higher grades in college than their counterparts who took the exams in the mid-1990s, the report said.

The average SAT verbal scores of prospective teachers passing the Praxis tests to teach English, science, social studies, math and art from 2002 to 2005 were higher than those of prospective teachers in the mid-1990s — and were also higher than the average SAT scores for all college graduates, the report said.

The percentage of candidates reporting a 3.5 GPA or higher rose from 27% to 40%

Teacher qualifications improve in the past decade - USATODAY.com

The college grades of prospective teachers has also improved. About 40 percent of the prospective teachers taking the licensing tests from 2002 to 2005 had a grade point average of 3.5 or higher on the traditional 4-point scale during college, up from 26 percent in the 1990s, the report said.

“By this measure, we are witnessing a dramatic improvement in the quality of the teacher pool,” the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/ed...on&oref=slogin

3.5 or higher?

•Federal Title II reporting rules, which in 1998 required states and teachers' colleges to report Praxis pass rates.

• No Child Left Behind, which in 2002 forced states to expand teacher licensing testing, just as they were setting higher standards, such as minimum GPA requirements, for teacher education candidates.

ETS: Educational Testing Service ? Home

Korimyr the Rat · 10-02-08, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders

I think widespread homeschooling is a very bad idea. Once you know how to read and do basic math, most of the benefit from school is social. ... The development that school children undergo is much more important than the basic, generalized facts they teach you in school

Yes, it is that social development that is crucial. The social development in school, however, has very little to do with the real world-- and it is often downright toxic.

Children have far more to gain socially by interacting with adults and other children in a natural environment and witnessing the behavioral standards of the workplace and adult social life, rather than interacting only with authority figures and children their own age, in an artificial and corrosive social environment.

UtahBill · 10-02-08, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

The current system obviously is failing, yet you don't want to change it?

HOW is it failing? Can you elaborate?

My experience says public schools are not failing as a rule. SOME are, but the vast majority are not.
Of all my siblings, kids, nephews, nieces, friends, friends kids, etc. I don't know any who went to private school. Perhaps a few of the friends who are catholic spent some time in parochial schools. Of all those people, only a few have been failed by someone else, and the first failure was their parents. If mom and dad don't push the kids and stress the value of education, not even the best of schools can correct the bad attitude that has been developed. On my side of the family, one sister was a bad influence on her kids, so they suffered some while living with her, and are undereducted still. But still they are all gainfully employed. On my wife's side, her parents had 20 grandkids, and only one has "gone south" on us. His issues are unexplainable, certainly it wasn't parents or school. He just likes being the odd man out.
Nearly all of the rest of them are college educated, even tho it was a financial burden on the parents. Public schools are doing a good job.
But as always, Your mileage may vary...

Bodhisattva · 10-03-08, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVicchio
The current system obviously is failing, yet you don't want to change it?

In addition to what I posted above, I too, wonder how the public system is "failing".
What is it failing?
What is the criteria for success?
Who is it failing?
When did it start its collapse?

MrVicchio · 10-03-08, 10:53 AM

Our test scores are atrocious, kids know who slept with who on the real world, but can't do high end math, tell you what year the civil war was fought or even what E=MC2 means.

I work for a University, I see freshman who can't figure out how to think for themselves. Seriously, it's SCARY how ignorant these kids are.

Kernel Sanders · 10-03-08, 10:57 AM

Still waiting on an answer to this question. What happens if providing school to a certain area is just plain unprofitable and no private corporation wants to touch it? If the private sector does not step up and provide a school for some area, say inner Detroit, what happens to education in the area?