In an Ideal World is College Necessary for Most jobs?

justabubba said:

the only way i could agree with your assessment is if the person who chose not to obtain a college degree intended to start a small business of their own. by doing so, they could look to potentially become a highly compensated person and move into the next economic strata
otherwise, spending a career doing lowly jobs that are available with only a HS diploma for wages to match, would have to be disheartening for someone who knew they could have graduated from college if they had only decided to attend

the only ways to wealth are to win it, inherit it, create it as an entrepreneur, or acquire it via a high wage

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DA60 said:

You cannot become wealthy (my version of it) via a high wage unless the wage is INCREDIBLY high - and I agree that for those, you will probably need a degree. And winning it is virtually impossible. Plus inheriting it was decided at birth.

No, the only realistic way to true wealth is via starting/running your own business...and for that, you need no college at all. In fact, I put it to you that having one actually hurts your chances because it fills your head with static ideas or the ramblings of your failed prof's. Plus, you are trapped under the weight of huge student loans that force you to deal with that debt almost right away.
plus, the unemployment lines are filled with people with degrees in things they no longer have an interest in pursuing.

Look at many of the wealthiest (former and present) billionaires in America? Many have no post secondary degree...including Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and Michael Dell. True wealth comes from originality/determination/common sense/open mindedness...and that comes from within - not from a textbook.

Sure, if you want to do a job that requires a college degree...than you had better go to college.

But if you do not know what you want to be - going to college to find yourself is - imo - a weak and incredibly expensive way to do it. Plus, I did both and I learned FAR more in one year living on my own and by my wits than I did in years of post secondary education. I learned more about the world, the people in it and myself. As have almost everyone I know who did the same things. College is a structured and safe environment that teaches you virtually nothing about the REAL world. The real world is cruel and brutal and challenging...but highly rewarding if handled properly.

Never underestimate the power of being street wise - something you cannot get in college.

Even if one intends to go to college...they should take at least one year off and travel and live off of their wits. Because once they enter college, graduate, and then start their careers, they will not be able to do it again. 19-21 is a special time...it should not be - imo - wasted doing what everyone else does and following the stagnant and steady course. There is always time for that.

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Sure, if you want to receive a wage that requires a college degree...than you had better go to college.

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blackjack50 said:

Exactly as the title says...would it be?

In my personal opinion it wouldn't be. Most jobs CAN be done with a high school level of education. Maybe they require a bit of training, but a high school diploma provides the requisite educational skills needed.

So.


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justabubba said:

[red/underline emphasis added by bubba]

i would change that sentence to read

and that is the essential point. someone who does not acquire a college diploma will subject themselves to a lifetime of low wage employment. the only way out will be as a small business owner. and be assured many smart people are without the necessary skills to own/manage a small business. for them, college is essential ... IF they have the aptitude for it. if they are just delaying having to go to work for a living, yes, they are wasting their time and borrowed money by attending college

i differ with you about not finding what you want to do as a career in college. many 18 year old kids have no idea what they want to do with their working lives. they have spent their past 12 years in school, following a curriculum selected for them. college is their opportunity to find out what they may become passionate about. this is especially true of kids who grew up in rural areas and who had little exposure to a wide array of job opportunities that actually exist. my youngest is an ideal example of this scenario. she changed majors every semester ... including her self-directed major. but she emerged to enter the medical industry and is experiencing a prosperous career that she enjoys. she would not have been qualified had she not gone to college

the students who go to college knowing exactly what they want to do with their lives definitely have an advantage. and those who attend to study 'communications' or something equally nebulous emerge with a student debt and degree that does not lend itself to a high initial wage. but i believe kids who leave university with student debt but also an ability to earn higher wages in more interesting industries with more opportunities for advancement have properly invested in themselves and their futures

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DA60 said:

And how exactly does one make a good living with a degree in Elizabethan Poetry? Or some other nonsensical degree that the private sector has no call for?
You are saying $50-100,000 in student loans is worth that?

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justabubba said:

anyone who could spend four years reading that dreck would have to possess the skills of a good copy editor
might work in advertising writing copy
could teach

bottom line, over a 30 year career, the person would only have to earn - at most - $1.50 an hour more than a high school graduate to have made the expense of college pay off financially
besides the intangible rewards of not having to do the lower end work that would be the domain of the high school graduate

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coyotedelmar said:

No, I think a lot of the non-field specific education is what we should be teaching in high school (along with encouraging critical thinking, something both college and high school can have problems with currently). Certain fields should require more extensive training and weeding out that a college can provide but some of the stuff currently requiring a degree seems more to be so employers can put the cost of training on the perspective employee.

I also don't have an issue with the, for lack of better words, odder fields that can currently be studied at a college, just they also shouldn't be saddling people with mountains of debt to study them.

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DA60 said:

And how exactly does one make a good living with a degree in Elizabethan Poetry? Or some other nonsensical degree that the private sector has no call for?

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justabubba said:

the only way i could agree with your assessment is if the person who chose not to obtain a college degree intended to start a small business of their own. by doing so, they could look to potentially become a highly compensated person and move into the next economic strata
otherwise, spending a career doing lowly jobs that are available with only a HS diploma for wages to match, would have to be disheartening for someone who knew they could have graduated from college if they had only decided to attend

the only ways to wealth are to win it, inherit it, create it as an entrepreneur, or acquire it via a high wage

Click to expand...

PirateMk1 said:

Most people should be looking to go into business for themselves eventually, it is the only really effective way to massively leverage yourself and skills and assets and money, to accumulate wealth at a more rapid pace than employment. Remember employers are MAKING A PROFIT off you, and more importantly control the LEVEL of profit.

College is only appropriate after a cost benefit analysis on the perspective field of endeavor. College does no one any favors if it is so expensive as to negate potential gains in income for a significant amount of time. Life has a way changing ones plans, so what you thought you were going to do and what you actually do are two generally speaking very different things, best laid plans of mice and men and all. Unless the degree attained is a broad flexible degree that can be used for a broad range of endeavor, one will be forced to go back to college to obtain whatever supplementary education is required for their current endeavors costing both time and money which may or may not be worth the investment.

The best way and fastest way to wealth in general terms with reasonable certainty are by first by owning and running a business, second by intense saving. Those two methods are the only real viable ways to accumulate wealth.

Click to expand...

DA60 said:

You cannot become wealthy (my version of it) via a high wage unless the wage is INCREDIBLY high - and I agree that for those, you will probably need a degree. And winning it is virtually impossible. Plus inheriting it was decided at birth.

No, the only realistic way to true wealth is via starting/running your own business...and for that, you need no college at all. In fact, I put it to you that having one actually hurts your chances because it fills your head with static ideas or the ramblings of your failed prof's. Plus, you are trapped under the weight of huge student loans that force you to deal with that debt almost right away.
plus, the unemployment lines are filled with people with degrees in things they no longer have an interest in pursuing.

Look at many of the wealthiest (former and present) billionaires in America? Many have no post secondary degree...including Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg and Michael Dell. True wealth comes from originality/determination/common sense/open mindedness...and that comes from within - not from a textbook.

Sure, if you want to do a job that requires a college degree...than you had better go to college.

But if you do not know what you want to be - going to college to find yourself is - imo - a weak and incredibly expensive way to do it. Plus, I did both and I learned FAR more in one year living on my own and by my wits than I did in years of post secondary education. I learned more about the world, the people in it and myself. As have almost everyone I know who did the same things. College is a structured and safe environment that teaches you virtually nothing about the REAL world. The real world is cruel and brutal and challenging...but highly rewarding if handled properly.

Never underestimate the power of being street wise - something you cannot get in college.

Even if one intends to go to college...they should take at least one year off and travel and live off of their wits. Because once they enter college, graduate, and then start their careers, they will not be able to do it again. 19-21 is a special time...it should not be - imo - wasted doing what everyone else does and following the stagnant and steady course. There is always time for that.

Click to expand...

PirateMk1 said:

Most people should be looking to go into business for themselves eventually, it is the only really effective way to massively leverage yourself and skills and assets and money, to accumulate wealth at a more rapid pace than employment. Remember employers are MAKING A PROFIT off you, and more importantly control the LEVEL of profit.

College is only appropriate after a cost benefit analysis on the perspective field of endeavor. College does no one any favors if it is so expensive as to negate potential gains in income for a significant amount of time. Life has a way changing ones plans, so what you thought you were going to do and what you actually do are two generally speaking very different things, best laid plans of mice and men and all. Unless the degree attained is a broad flexible degree that can be used for a broad range of endeavor, one will be forced to go back to college to obtain whatever supplementary education is required for their current endeavors costing both time and money which may or may not be worth the investment.

The best way and fastest way to wealth in general terms with reasonable certainty are by first by owning and running a business, second by intense saving. Those two methods are the only real viable ways to accumulate wealth.

Click to expand...

Carjosse said:

That or fail and come out with a massive amount of debt anyways. Going to college and working fro a company is a much safer and stable bet for most people.

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PirateMk1 said:

Most people should be looking to go into business for themselves eventually, it is the only really effective way to massively leverage yourself and skills and assets and money, to accumulate wealth at a more rapid pace than employment. Remember employers are MAKING A PROFIT off you, and more importantly control the LEVEL of profit.

College is only appropriate after a cost benefit analysis on the perspective field of endeavor. College does no one any favors if it is so expensive as to negate potential gains in income for a significant amount of time. Life has a way changing ones plans, so what you thought you were going to do and what you actually do are two generally speaking very different things, best laid plans of mice and men and all. Unless the degree attained is a broad flexible degree that can be used for a broad range of endeavor, one will be forced to go back to college to obtain whatever supplementary education is required for their current endeavors costing both time and money which may or may not be worth the investment.

The best way and fastest way to wealth in general terms with reasonable certainty are by first by owning and running a business, second by intense saving. Those two methods are the only real viable ways to accumulate wealth.

Click to expand...

Grand Mal said:

Seriously? University is only valuable as career training?
Jesus. My highest level of education was completing a trade apprenticeship and my biggest regret in life was not pursuing a degree in English Literature or Asian History or Neolithic Archeology or something, anything. Would you not like to have got a degree in some field, just to have learned a subject to that level? I tried to encourage my son to go to school, would have subsidised him, but his generation is so pragmatic and practical he couldn't see the use of learning anything that didn't pay off in the end. That how you see it?

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PirateMk1 said:

That presumes you went into debt to start the business. And I disagree with you on going into business as being riskier than working for someone. You are in business for yourself whether you realize it or not. There are only two differences first you are responsible for yourself AND your business, second and more importantly you have more than ONE customer, at least if you are smart. If a customer fires me its not the end of the world I move on. If a employer/customer fires an employee, that's devastating. Its actually more risky to be employed in many ways.

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Carjosse said:

Most people cannot go into business for themselves without taking out some kind of loan. And if their business starts to fail they will most likely take out more loans and erase their savings. A lot of businesses fail, there is quite a bit of luck involved. Going into business for yourself is incredibly risky especially if you already have a stable and a family to support. It also takes a lot more work than people want to do.

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PirateMk1 said:

I have pursuits, but I don't need a degree. I am not interested in pursuing a degree, school is something I can only take in small doses. I sit in on an occasional class. (History is my favorite. The occasional engineering class as well.) And yes University is only necessary for a degree if it is profitable otherwise I would suggest putting it off till you have the money and time to go and appreciate it. I would recommend someone starting out in life under major debt unless there is a VERY clearly defined plan for making that debt a profitable undertaking.

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chromium said:

Well one clearly defined plan would be getting into a top 20 school so you don't need to take on debt. It's remarkable how few high school kids are even aware of this

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Carjosse said:

I would not say that is even close to close to practical for 99% of people. Not even counting how hard it is to get into those schools, those programs usually require the student to work for the university for ~30 hours/week and maintain an almost perfect GPA, something even the best students would struggle with.

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Grand Mal said:

Seriously? University is only valuable as career training?
Jesus. My highest level of education was completing a trade apprenticeship and my biggest regret in life was not pursuing a degree in English Literature or Asian History or Neolithic Archeology or something, anything. Would you not like to have got a degree in some field, just to have learned a subject to that level? I tried to encourage my son to go to school, would have subsidised him, but his generation is so pragmatic and practical he couldn't see the use of learning anything that didn't pay off in the end. That how you see it?

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nota bene said:

Modern-day students too often see college as a glorified trade school. I am a great, great fan of certifications and Associate of Applied Science degrees. But these days there is a tremendous lack of intellectual curiosity. No desire to learn just for the sake of the learning, and no understanding that it's not just okay, but even pretty cool to learn stuff even if this somehow doesn't make you money.

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Fiddytree said:

I think this has largely been a concern since Americans developed institutions of learning. We've always had this concern for learning what was immediately practical rather than what was interesting. This was less of a concern for those in the relatively higher income areas, as their intellectual pursuits could be more leisurely-more concentrated in the liberal arts and the great works. For the bourgeois and working-class American, the struggle to learn for its own sake was rightly contested with the day-to-day demands of providing modest living. These individuals would rightly point out that reading Euclides may be interesting and develop the intellect, but what does it do for them in order to reach for higher standards of living? Either that or the comfortable classes likewise sought to argue that the working, lower middle, and middle classes could not afford to do with the niceties that the well-to-do were exposed, and so sought to ensure that they would not.

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