Demonstration of What's Wrong With Public Education

galenrox · 11-28-07, 12:42 PM

Alright, my mom's a public school teacher, she teaches 3rd grade. My dad has done well for himself and as a product of which my mom is not financially reliant on her income as a teacher to get by (it's sad, but I guess in this day and age it bears to mention my parents are still married).

I went in to help her out with her class, it's ****ing ridiculous. At least 4 of those kids should be in reform school by now, and several others should've been diagnosed and off with trained special ed teachers, but instead my mom is forced to handle kids that for the life of them can't sit still and pay attention for more than 30 seconds and kids who are violent enough that they are seriously a threat to my mom's safety.
On top of this, the teachers in my mom's situation are provided no means of disciplining their students. Since the actual school building is over crowded, my mom and several other teachers teach in a converted jewish center which the CPS rents out. Now most teachers can send troubled students to the principle's office, but in this case the principle's office is about 3 blocks away and there's no staff member at my mom's building who can actually take the time to walk the student over to the main building, so teachers are required to keep troubled students in their classrooms. They're also not allowed to make the students stay after class, because parents come to pick their kids up and refuse to be forced to wait for their kid to come out. My mom is continually told to talk to children's parents to solve the problem, which completely ignores that there are a lot of parents who really make absolutely no effort to discipline their children. So she literally has nothing she can do to deal with the out of control children so that she can actually do her job, which is teaching the under control students. So as she's busy dealing with out of control kids all day, the under control kids inevitably respond by becoming more out of control, and the class turns to ****.

But there's more, as of course, there must be. My mom was trying to get her class lined up, and one of her most out of control kids was running around, standing behind her and mocking her while she was trying to get the other kids under control. My mom turns around to lead this kid to the side with her hand, the kid moves and so she touches his neck instead of his back. The janitor reports this as abuse, and so now my mom is under 3 investigations, one with the police, one with the CPS, and one with the school.

I told my mom to say this, and I think she's on the same page, just go in to the principle and say "Listen, if I'm not given genuine means of removing problem children from my class by winter break, I will not be returning after winter break, and I could care less if you've located a replacement for me by that point in time."

My mom tells me this reaffirms her belief in vouchers, because **** like this would never be allowed to transpire in a market system. Anyway about it, it's ****ing infuriating.

talloulou · 11-28-07, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galenrox

Alright, my mom's a public school teacher, she teaches 3rd grade. My dad has done well for himself and as a product of which my mom is not financially reliant on her income as a teacher to get by (it's sad, but I guess in this day and age it bears to mention my parents are still married).

I went in to help her out with her class, it's ****ing ridiculous. At least 4 of those kids should be in reform school by now, and several others should've been diagnosed and off with trained special ed teachers, but instead my mom is forced to handle kids that for the life of them can't sit still and pay attention for more than 30 seconds and kids who are violent enough that they are seriously a threat to my mom's safety.
On top of this, the teachers in my mom's situation are provided no means of disciplining their students. Since the actual school building is over crowded, my mom and several other teachers teach in a converted jewish center which the CPS rents out. Now most teachers can send troubled students to the principle's office, but in this case the principle's office is about 3 blocks away and there's no staff member at my mom's building who can actually take the time to walk the student over to the main building, so teachers are required to keep troubled students in their classrooms. They're also not allowed to make the students stay after class, because parents come to pick their kids up and refuse to be forced to wait for their kid to come out. My mom is continually told to talk to children's parents to solve the problem, which completely ignores that there are a lot of parents who really make absolutely no effort to discipline their children. So she literally has nothing she can do to deal with the out of control children so that she can actually do her job, which is teaching the under control students. So as she's busy dealing with out of control kids all day, the under control kids inevitably respond by becoming more out of control, and the class turns to ****.

But there's more, as of course, there must be. My mom was trying to get her class lined up, and one of her most out of control kids was running around, standing behind her and mocking her while she was trying to get the other kids under control. My mom turns around to lead this kid to the side with her hand, the kid moves and so she touches his neck instead of his back. The janitor reports this as abuse, and so now my mom is under 3 investigations, one with the police, one with the CPS, and one with the school.

I told my mom to say this, and I think she's on the same page, just go in to the principle and say "Listen, if I'm not given genuine means of removing problem children from my class by winter break, I will not be returning after winter break, and I could care less if you've located a replacement for me by that point in time."

My mom tells me this reaffirms her belief in vouchers, because **** like this would never be allowed to transpire in a market system. Anyway about it, it's ****ing infuriating.

As long as your mom isn't on video going ape$hit and as long as the kid has no visible marks on him after the incident it is unlikely that the investigations will amount to much but it sucks that she has to go through all that.

That aside, as long as the kids see that the teacher has no effective means of disciplining them things will spiral out of control. Unfortunately the schools are so failed up right now that many teachers have their hands tied and in effect they've lost control of their class. They can't scream and yell, they can't do anything that will embarrass the child, ect.. Hell in some areas it is now illegal for teachers to take away recess. (If your mom can take away recess for the week that is fairly effective, particularly with rowdy little boys.)

Even the principals office thing is getting kind of old. There are many children at my kids school who have already been suspended in K, 1st, 2nd, ect. The principal's office and the threat of suspension sorta loses its "fear factor" if you've already served a suspension or two by 2nd grade. I can only imagine what these kids will be like once they are in jr. high and what not. I'm sort of against suspending kids prior to 3rd grade unless they've done something insane. Otherwise you take something that could be a "big deal" when they're older and made a mockery of it. What the hell does a 14 year old care about being suspended if he already was in kindergarten, 1st, & 2nd??? And that's what principals tend to lean on. "Here, take your kid back. We can't handle the little bugger."

Personally I think teachers should be able to go back to yelling, threatening, and embarrassing the hell out of the little fvcks because that works. It especially works with rambunctious little boys who simply aren't gonna respect, "Please stop doing that. No really please stop doing that. blah blah blah..." with no real consequences ever put out. The only good thing about suspending them at that young age is that in many occasions it pisses the parents off big time as someone has to stay home from work to watch jr. And the parents are still allowed to yell, threaten, and embarrass.

But I feel for your mom. I would not want to be a teacher in this current climate. The kids really are ruling the roost in many cases. I don't advocate going back to the days where they quote scripture and beat ya with a ruler but theres got to be something between that and the current situation where the teachers authority is somewhat mocked because really....what's she gonna do? Today? Nothing!

Putting all these little boys on drugs though so they're more zombie like and sitting still is not the answer.

Goldenboy219 · 11-30-07, 12:50 PM

If there is no way for an authority to punish absolute disruptive behavior, then the teacher has little control over their class.

If this happens, how on earth would it be possible to implement a lesson plan? How would it be possible for a student to actually pay attention if they wanted to?

Teacher does not mean babysitter/ educator...

Bodhisattva · 01-07-08, 04:48 AM

Mainstreaming...
You HAVE to love it!

Your mom got the raw end of that deal.

I am amazed at the politicians/publics political calling for ALL kids to be educated.

WReality check...society does not need, nor are all kids capable, of being college grads seeking professional careers.

Many kids are simply not capable...
Many kids are simply not motivated...

Why are teachers "forced" to teach kids that are such?

It is ridiculous...

RightinNYC · 01-07-08, 07:34 AM

The bulk of my friends who have done or are doing Teach for America went in all bright eyed and bushy tailed and came out depressed and disgusted. A few of them are still doing it, but most have left, including one of my friends who loves teaching but is just fed up with the bull**** regulations in some of these school systems. He's quitting at the end of the year and starting a job teaching in a private school where he can actually do something about the kids.

It's sad really.

UtahBill · 01-07-08, 08:00 AM

Time for a nationwide strike, all teachers should just stay home until they have the right to exclude children from their classroom who will not cooperate.
It is not a constitutional right to receive an education. The government provides classrooms, teachers, etc. but it is up to the parents to provide a willing student.
If the parents will not do that one thing, the parents can just home school the kid.
My MIL and wife are retired teachers, my son is currently teaching 8th grade. The problems they have faced so far are minor, but getting worse, and I am talking about conservative western states. No way would I have allowed my wife to teach in the environment mentioned in the OP. We would get by on beans and rice first....

galenrox · 01-07-08, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahBill

Time for a nationwide strike, all teachers should just stay home until they have the right to exclude children from their classroom who will not cooperate.
It is not a constitutional right to receive an education. The government provides classrooms, teachers, etc. but it is up to the parents to provide a willing student.
If the parents will not do that one thing, the parents can just home school the kid.
My MIL and wife are retired teachers, my son is currently teaching 8th grade. The problems they have faced so far are minor, but getting worse, and I am talking about conservative western states. No way would I have allowed my wife to teach in the environment mentioned in the OP. We would get by on beans and rice first....

Yeah, my mom chose to retire, her last day was the last day before winter break. There was a student teacher who the school tried to hire to replace her, but the student teacher refused as she had seen my mom's kids and the level of help she was receiving with them.

Mach · 01-08-08, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Mainstreaming...
You HAVE to love it!

Your mom got the raw end of that deal.
I am amazed at the politicians/publics political calling for ALL kids to be educated.
WReality check...society does not need, nor are all kids capable, of being college grads seeking professional careers.
Many kids are simply not capable...
Many kids are simply not motivated...

You need to keep in mind what public education is about.
It's about these fundamental ethics problems.

1. A significant percentage of children have shi* for parents, and basically shi* for a life. Horrible peers, violence, drugs, sex, abuse, poverty, etc. They did not choose this.
- So, a public education system at least gives some chance for all children to pull themselves out of that horrible situation they were placed in. We do not choose when we are born, where, who to, etc. But we can recongize that some children got the short end of the stick. I was fortunate in a white middle class, educated household. Where in the F would I get off telling other kids to shape up? I had it EASY.

2. Education leads to better and more productive citizens, less crime, etc. The overall cost of education should be lower than the productive impact those educated citizens make. It's economics, it's not welfare.

3. An educated society is required to maintain a relatively stable, working democracy. If everyone is an ignorant sheep, with no power, power will find them and enslave them, and democracy will go away.

Quote:

Why are teachers "forced" to teach kids that are such?

They aren't. His mother can quit any time she wants. The reality is that some people, not his mother, decided who will and will not be taught. If she doesn't agree, OK, but that has nothing to do with being forced. We all disagree with our superiors, even if that "superior" is ourself.

It's not that the ideal of saying "we'll only teach kids that want to be taught" isn't compelling. It's just not useful unfortunately. A democractic, law-abiding society is not the norm, it takes a lot of effort and struggle to maintain it, and some of that is felt by teachers on the front line. I'm not saying there isn't a better way, but instead why it's there, and that a struggle is not enough to make it wrong.

-Mach

SFLRN · 01-10-08, 09:05 PM

It appears to be a multi-faceted issue (to state the obvious).
1. Some kids do not have the benefit of a stable and loving home.
2. A number of rules and regulations (excessive rules and regulations to a degree) prevent teachers from responding to classroom issues.
3. Children in poorer areas are all lumped together and are usually forced to be in the same room as children who need a different learning environment due to home circumstances.
Not to mention other factors.

Bodhisattva · 01-11-08, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Mach
You need to keep in mind what public education is about.
It's about these fundamental ethics problems.

1. A significant percentage of children have shi* for parents, and basically shi* for a life. Horrible peers, violence, drugs, sex, abuse, poverty, etc. They did not choose this.
- So, a public education system at least gives some chance for all children to pull themselves out of that horrible situation they were placed in. We do not choose when we are born, where, who to, etc. But we can recongize that some children got the short end of the stick. I was fortunate in a white middle class, educated household. Where in the F would I get off telling other kids to shape up? I had it EASY.

2. Education leads to better and more productive citizens, less crime, etc. The overall cost of education should be lower than the productive impact those educated citizens make. It's economics, it's not welfare.

3. An educated society is required to maintain a relatively stable, working democracy. If everyone is an ignorant sheep, with no power, power will find them and enslave them, and democracy will go away.

Oh...I understand what public education is about.
I have stated aspects like you have mentioned repeatedly...

What I feel you are not addressing is the aspect of Individual Responsibility...
That is one of the Fundamental Concepts of this nation.

Teachers ARE forced to teach kids that are unmotivated in Public School...
It is Mainstreaming or Full Inclusion...depending on the area.

I am not sure where you heard that unmotivated and unintelligent kids...or special education kids... or behavioral challenged kids (ADD / Bi Polar / etc) are not mainstreamed and put in teachers classes regardless of the fact that this will inhibit the teachers ability to actually teach a subject instead of teaching how to behave and be respectful and such...

Quote:

Bodi
Why are teachers "forced" to teach kids that are such?

Mach
They aren't. His mother can quit any time she wants. The reality is that some people, not his mother, decided who will and will not be taught. If she doesn't agree, OK, but that has nothing to do with being forced. We all disagree with our superiors, even if that "superior" is ourself.

I don't even know what this means.
What does mothering have to do with teachers being forced to teach problem kids that would be better off in alternate classroom environments?

Quote:

Mach
It's not that the ideal of saying "we'll only teach kids that want to be taught" isn't compelling. It's just not useful unfortunately. A democractic, law-abiding society is not the norm, it takes a lot of effort and struggle to maintain it, and some of that is felt by teachers on the front line. I'm not saying there isn't a better way, but instead why it's there, and that a struggle is not enough to make it wrong.

We ARE a democratic law abiding society...so why are those that are not democratic and law abiding relavant to this discussion again?

It is best to teach kids according to their ability and desire.

Not all kids are capable of attaining 4-year degrees or Master Degrees...
Some are great at working on cars and this talen should be praised and cultivated...not hindered by making the kid take 4 years of English or Math.