• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is algebra an unnecessary stumbling block in US schools?

Lutherf said:
It's necessary. People use basic algebra all the time so I have no idea where they come up with "only 5% of jobs" use it.
Click to expand...

What I thought was funny is the article was speaking of 9th grade algebra. The example that gave was 7th grade algebra when I was in school.

The schools are really failing our kids, and yes. Basic algebra should remain.
 
AtlantaAdonis said:
Algebra is just a way to keep women out of certain science fields. Think about it...we have gender parity in medical schools and biological sciences that have less stringent math requirements, but the ones with more stringent math requirements have fewer women. Excessive and unnecessary math requirements just weaken our work force.

I read Stephen Hawking's books and got real interested in physics but found college physics courses really just squashed any real intellectual curiosity with silly labs about measuring pendulum periods and making blocks slide down inclines. It's just an archaic requirements that keep many women and non-quantitatively inclined people out of science.
Click to expand...

So basically your argument is that you're not intelligent enough to learn math so we should dumb it down so people that have no actual interest in the meat of the science can get degrees in it? Would you hold the same view if we did it for doctors and surgeons? What an absolutely horrible idea.
 
holy **** are you serious? No one who isn't functionally retarded should be unable to pass algebra, much less get a diploma. Algebra 2 should be done by 10th grade at latest, which is below the drop out age in a lot of cases

Just because you hate math doesn't make it an unreasonable expectation. If anything kids need to be pushed harder to know what's at stake, like mandatory calculus to graduate. Otherwise they'll just be too far behind to even consider going into a STEM career. Which if they end up not wanting to, fine, but at that age, best to keep options open
 
radcen said:
Calculus is a bit of a reach (as a requirement), but I agree with your overall point.
Click to expand...

no it isn't. It's just that standards are so ridiculously low, and that's why diplomas are near worthless. Kids aren't pushed or inspired any more
 
Whilst algebra is utterly required for any science or engineering work it is unimprotant for most other jobs.

I have done physics and maths to the age of 18. I have used it twice. Once to use basic trigonometry to work out the angles of my stone arches in my house in France and once I used basic algebra to build the round pointed roof on my god daughter's play house.

I would have a stringent numeracy test as a requirment for graduation. This would include working out compound interest and a tax return. If you can't do these things you are functionally crippled in today's society. Most of us would fail this test today.
 
Algebra is pretty much a waste of time and effort. Those that need math can take it but for the vast majority of people it is completely useless. Only jobs that require algebra, generally as a stepping stone to higher math, actually will use it. Nobody uses it in their daily lives... When we go to the store to shop we don't use it... cooking dinner? Nope. Watching a movie? Nope. Driving a car? Nope. Doing my taxes? Nope. Doing my job? Nope. When? Never. Raising kids? Oh yeah, we do. I have 2G X 2T and that = C 2 Girls X 2 Toys = Cost $50. Damn, that sure was helpful :roll: Oh, all that was needed was basic math (Mulitplying say you?)
 
Anagram said:
Algebra is necessary. It's probably true that you'll never need to plot x and y on a chart for a job. But basic algebra is extremely helpful for a lot of things.
Click to expand...

It is necessary to about 2% of the population for their jobs so why are the other 98% of us wasting our time doing it again?
 
Grand Mal said:
Anyone who thinks algebra, literature, art appreciation, astronomy, whatever is a waste of time doesn't know what education is for. Education isn't job training, education is for learning how to think. High-school education, anyway. Algebra, for example, may not be useful but creative problem-solving is, and can't be taught directly.
Click to expand...

All education is but logic and linear thinking can be taught without algebra. It is also taught in writing and basic maths...
 
Bodhisattva said:
All education is but logic and linear thinking can be taught without algebra. It is also taught in writing and basic maths...
Click to expand...

If there is one thing American kids need more of, it's math. The idea that we should teach them even less is absurd.
 
calamity said:
If there is one thing American kids need more of, it's math. The idea that we should teach them even less is absurd.
Click to expand...
We are talking about algebra... not "math". All kids should be good at basic mathematics. Those that want more math will get it even if we tried to stop them.

There are other things that should be taught before algebra is.
 
Bodhisattva said:
We are talking about algebra... not "math". All kids should be good at basic mathematics. Those that want more math will get it even if we tried to stop them.
Click to expand...

Uh...the math you are referring to kids should learn by 6th grade. Basic algebra is JR highschool work. Advanced math like Geometry, Trig, higher order algebra and calculus are high school level courses. Only here, in the US, is all that considered "too hard" for our stupid kids. No wonder we suck so bad when compared to South Korea.


There are other things that should be taught before algebra is.
Click to expand...
Yeah, like gender studies and African history. :roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
All education is but logic and linear thinking can be taught without algebra. It is also taught in writing and basic maths...
Click to expand...

I disagree. Education is learning how to think. Did your literature teacher tell you that Beowulf couldn't be a big-time heroic unless Grendal was a big-time evil? Did you learn that Picasso's cubism was related to nihilism in Faulkner and Hemingway? It's all about thinking, and thinking about what others think. Doesn't matter if there's any practical application.
 
calamity said:
Uh...the math you are referring to kids should learn by 6th grade. Basic algebra is JR highschool work. Advanced math like Geometry, Trig, higher order algebra and calculus are high school level courses. Only here, in the US, is all that considered "too hard" for our stupid kids. No wonder we suck so bad when compared to South Korea.
Click to expand...

As a teacher I am well aware of when subjects are taught and I took Algebra 1 in jr. high. That said there is still no need to learn algebra as a general mandated subject.

Yeah, like gender studies and African history. :roll:
Click to expand...

Right, because those are the only options. :roll:
 
Grand Mal said:
I disagree. Education is learning how to think. Did your literature teacher tell you that Beowulf couldn't be a big-time heroic unless Grendal was a big-time evil? Did you learn that Picasso's cubism was related to nihilism in Faulkner and Hemingway? It's all about thinking, and thinking about what others think. Doesn't matter if there's any practical application.
Click to expand...

Your average student has no idea who or what you are talking about and even if you taught them they wouldn't get it nor would they remember what the lesson was nor would it affect how they think. The few smart people from school sit around and talk about what the public needs to learn not realizing what the average student is like. As a high school teacher that has taught in upper, middle and lower classes at 3 different US high schools and in 2 different countries I can tell you with 100% positivity that the average student will get an average job like a sales clerk, MacDonalds manager, telemarketing, road crew, construction, etc etc. They are not capable nor do they care about Beowulf let alone what it relates to or why. And guess what? They don't need to know... so why bother trying to force it on them?
 
Bodhisattva said:
As a teacher I am well aware of when subjects are taught and I took Algebra 1 in jr. high. That said there is still no need to learn algebra as a general mandated subject.



Right, because those are the only options. :roll:
Click to expand...

I'm of the opinion that all HS students should be required to take math through trigonometry. Calc can be optional. I also believe they should all be required to take 4 years of science: Chem I, Physics I, Bio and then an AP course of their choosing.
 
calamity said:
I'm of the opinion that all HS students should be required to take math through trigonometry. Calc can be optional. I also believe they should all be required to take 4 years of science: Chem I, Physics I, Bio and then an AP course of their choosing.
Click to expand...

That is even worse... why force things on students that have zero relevance to how their lives will be lived? Math at high school is about the most irrelevant subject that there is.

English comes a close second and then certain sciences... most high school is a waste of time for the average student.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is even worse... why force things on students that have zero relevance to how their lives will be lived? Math at high school is about the most irrelevant subject that there is.

English comes a close second and then certain sciences... most high school is a waste of time for the average student.
Click to expand...

I guess you want them to be stupid burger flippers for life then. In this day and age, anyone lacking math skills and knowledge in science faces an uphill battle. But, I am sure they are easier to manipulate into voting for buffoons like Trump and Sanders.
 
calamity said:
I guess you want them to be stupid burger flippers for life then. In this day and age, anyone lacking math skills and knowledge in science faces an uphill battle. But, I am sure they are easier to manipulate into voting for buffoons like Trump and Sanders.
Click to expand...

I am being realistic. As a teacher and as a realistic person I understand the limitations and capabilities of the average person. Like I said to the other guy the majority of people don't need that type of math, or Beowulf or what the PH Balance of something is... it is a waste of time, money and life. People without those skills or that forgot what they learned in school are already doing better than burger flipping. They are managers of stores, bartenders at great restaurants, chefs, artists and average jobs that people with average or lower intelligence get, cleaners, hostesses, construction, road works, mechanics, plumbers, politicians, etc. Stick to your Appeal to Emotion though...
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am being realistic. As a teacher and as a realistic person I understand the limitations and capabilities of the average person. Like I said to the other guy the majority of people don't need that type of math, or Beowulf or what the PH Balance of something is... it is a waste of time, money and life. People without those skills or that forgot what they learned in school are already doing better than burger flipping. They are managers of stores, bartenders at great restaurants, chefs, artists and average jobs that people with average or lower intelligence get, cleaners, hostesses, construction, road works, mechanics, plumbers, politicians, etc. Stick to your Appeal to Emotion though...
Click to expand...

I'm a firm believer in pushing kids to their limits to see what they can achieve. If we let them bail on hard stuff before they even try it, we are dooming an entire generation into jobs as servants in the service industry. I never wanted to be a servant. But, I knew that very early in life. So, I did the work, and passed my math and science classes.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is even worse... why force things on students that have zero relevance to how their lives will be lived? Math at high school is about the most irrelevant subject that there is.

English comes a close second and then certain sciences... most high school is a waste of time for the average student.
Click to expand...

Your avatar is strangely relevant.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Your average student has no idea who or what you are talking about and even if you taught them they wouldn't get it nor would they remember what the lesson was nor would it affect how they think. The few smart people from school sit around and talk about what the public needs to learn not realizing what the average student is like. As a high school teacher that has taught in upper, middle and lower classes at 3 different US high schools and in 2 different countries I can tell you with 100% positivity that the average student will get an average job like a sales clerk, MacDonalds manager, telemarketing, road crew, construction, etc etc. They are not capable nor do they care about Beowulf let alone what it relates to or why. And guess what? They don't need to know... so why bother trying to force it on them?
Click to expand...


It wasn't forced on me. I was taught by people who loved teaching. I graduated high school and went into the mines for four years and steel construction for the next 30. I remember Beowulf and the Tempest and The Importance of Being Earnest. I know how to apply the Pythagoras Theorem (ask me what (3-4-5 means). I know what mitochrondial DNA is. I know what the theory of relativity implies. All this stuff, this junk, was taught to me in high school by people who were sincere.
As an Ironworker, I was glad to know how to make a square corner but all the rest of it has made a bigger difference in my life.
 
Grand Mal said:
It wasn't forced on me. I was taught by people who loved teaching. I graduated high school and went into the mines for four years and steel construction for the next 30. I remember Beowulf and the Tempest and The Importance of Being Earnest. I know how to apply the Pythagoras Theorem (ask me what (3-4-5 means). I know what mitochrondial DNA is. I know what the theory of relativity implies. All this stuff, this junk, was taught to me in high school by people who were sincere.
As an Ironworker, I was glad to know how to make a square corner but all the rest of it has made a bigger difference in my life.
Click to expand...
More importantly, with a solid HS education you were not limited. Had you found the mines not to your liking and laying iron did not lead to a satisfying career, you would have had options.

One of the main reasons so many kids dropped out of my engineering program in college was that they recieved poor training in the basic fundamentals of math and science back in high school. It's nearly impossible to get through college level Chemistry, Physics and Calculus when your algebra skills are lacking. Those kids were all doomed before they even got started.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is even worse... why force things on students that have zero relevance to how their lives will be lived? Math at high school is about the most irrelevant subject that there is.

English comes a close second and then certain sciences... most high school is a waste of time for the average student.
Click to expand...
Zero relevance?




The relevance starts at about 03:28
​
 
Excon said:
Zero relevance?




The relevance starts at about 03:28
​
Click to expand...


Good post, Ex.

I always suspected that learning algebra at an early age was at the core of much of my thinking, especially regarding how my brain tackles complex subjects. I always get the feeling I am literally solving for an unknown in some deep seated, undefined equation when faced with many variables in complex situations. It's just that it happens so fast, that my brain does not really do it consciously. This video shows that my brain was trained to do exactly that.
 
I will never forget the very day that I was first introduced to Algebra in school.

I got lost on sentence 2. I totally gave up on that day. I was so depressed that many other students were following along, but not me.

From that day forward, I just guessed the multiple choice answers on exams. The best math score I ever had from that day forward was 51% and I think they just gave me that mark so that I would move on to the next grade.

I hated math more than I hated gym.

Thank God I took typing and shop classes two years later in grade 9 or I would of been an unemployed algebra failure for an eternity.

Calm
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom