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Is algebra an unnecessary stumbling block in US schools?

Harry Guerrilla said:
Math is fine, it's higher level math which is often useless.
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Ask almost any civil engineer (my industry) and they'll tell you that they have never used the vast majority of the higher level calculus-and-above stuff. I don't take that to mean it was all a waste of time, however.
 
radcen said:
Ask almost any civil engineer (my industry) and they'll tell you that they have never used the vast majority of the higher level calculus-and-above stuff. I don't take that to mean it was all a waste of time, however.
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I did ask them lol.
When I was in school, I asked some of the engineers here about it.
They said no.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
You can teach critical thinking and logic, it just requires a teacher skilled in it.
I don't believe most are though.

In any case, the problem with Brit Lit and literature classes like that is that they don't allow for personal preference.
I remember giving 0 ****s about reading Shakespeare, again, for the 1 millionth time.
We never did Milton.
It's canned learning, which I think is what draws so many people away from caring, past finishing the class.
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Okay. I can see that, but I'd change one thing in your post. I think it's canned teaching that lost you. A good teacher, enthusiastic about the subject, could make Shakespeare entertaining, which is what he was all about. Unfortunately, an education degree is seen as a soft route through university and so attracts some people who shouldn't be teachers.
This is one reason I advocate for high teacher salaries. Teachers, cops, you want to attract good people. In a capitalism it's not hard to figure what you get paid- it's about the value of what you produce, but I think sometimes a low value is put on teaching and policing until problems start to arise.
 
Lursa said:
In what?
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If you get paid 20$ an hour and have 1800$ a month in bills how many hours this month can you slack and not work so you can relax and have a few margaritas you have in that picture.
That's basic algebra that people use all the time.
 
gavinfielder said:
Such as? How about you provide an example or two.
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I imagine everyone will have their own idea on what is essential or non essential curriculum. I personally feel that public education should be about preparing a person for life and a potential career first and foremost. I believe that a lot of what is taught in school can and does expand ones general knowledge and understanding but much of it is not strictly used in a persons daily life. In this age of internet and its easy access to knowledge on any given subject that we would be better served if we stuck to basic usable education and left everything else for a person to learn on there own time. With the time and money saved by removing unnecessary curriculum we could be giving a more specialized education that better prepares a person for a career or interest.

You asked what I felt could be left out and here are just some of the things that I feel we could leave up to the individuals.


History - I consider this a general knowledge subject but in reality how much does a persons use it in there day to day?
Physical Education - In my time in public school PE never taught us anything about physical education and we had it an hour every day, every year. We did play sports or whatnot but as far as a usable education PE was a joke.
Chemistry - Better left for specialized education mentioned above. Not what I consider knowledge used in day to day by a majority of people.
Music - Again better for specialized classes for those that are interested but for most I feel it is a waste of time.

And more.. but I believe you get the point I am trying to make.
 
Grand Mal said:
Okay. I can see that, but I'd change one thing in your post. I think it's canned teaching that lost you. A good teacher, enthusiastic about the subject, could make Shakespeare entertaining, which is what he was all about. Unfortunately, an education degree is seen as a soft route through university and so attracts some people who shouldn't be teachers.
This is one reason I advocate for high teacher salaries. Teachers, cops, you want to attract good people. In a capitalism it's not hard to figure what you get paid- it's about the value of what you produce, but I think sometimes a low value is put on teaching and policing until problems start to arise.
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By canned I'm not necessarily meaning the teacher, but more of the material.
Some of it has to be "canned" like math, other stuff like literature can be more opensource.
There's a grade level system for a lot of published works, that can be used instead of a prescribed set of reading materials.
 
radcen said:
Ask almost any civil engineer (my industry) and they'll tell you that they have never used the vast majority of the higher level calculus-and-above stuff. I don't take that to mean it was all a waste of time, however.
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In my apprenticeship I had to learn 26 knots and splices for fibre rope. I used maybe 8 or 10 on the job but 100 years ago Ironworkers had to know this stuff so, dammit, you're gonna learn it too!
Might not be useful, but I like knowing how to tie a barrel hitch or Spanish bowline.
 
Grand Mal said:
In my apprenticeship I had to learn 26 knots and splices for fibre rope. I used maybe 8 or 10 on the job but 100 years ago Ironworkers had to know this stuff so, dammit, you're gonna learn it too!
Might not be useful, but I like knowing how to tie a barrel hitch or Spanish bowline.
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I'm glad you said this, because I think that's actually part of the issue. Tradition, or because "that's the way we've always done it", more than anything. Yet, go into most any engineer's office and you will see volumes of books with answers and formulas already done for them.

That being said, I stop short of saying we should drop whole vast areas of knowledge/teaching. There is the occasional time when a person has to reach back into the dark recess of their brain and dust off the cobwebs and use something they haven't even thought about in years. I fear we would swing too far the other way if we stopped teaching too much.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Everyone should have the option.
That's not the issue really.

Higher level math classes are often required, in lieu of things that would better help young adults navigate the world.
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I would argue that higher level maths are a part of that. They allow access to many jobs that pay far more than cashier at McDonald's.
 
JC Callender said:
Do you think Socrates saw things in a big picture sense? Or Abe Lincoln? Are you sure they took algebra?
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ok, i have to ask. what in the world could possibly be motivating you to argue against teaching kids algebra?
 
Helix said:
ok, i have to ask. what in the world could possibly be motivating you to argue against teaching kids algebra?
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My reply to you is an argument against your point about Algebra being essential to higher order thinking, not the OP's general question. I'm not bothered by Algebra being taught in school, I just don't see it as being as critical as you do.
 
JC Callender said:
My reply to you is an argument against your point about Algebra being essential to higher order thinking, not the OP's general question. I'm not bothered by Algebra being taught in school, I just don't see it as being as critical as you do.
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you do understand that challenging kids with higher order thinking exercises at a critical point in brain development is a good thing, right?
 
Helix said:
you do understand that challenging kids with higher order thinking exercises at a critical point in brain development is a good thing, right?
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I'm not saying it isn't, my argument is concerning your point that algebra is "essential" to higher order thinking.
 
JC Callender said:
I'm not saying it isn't, my argument is concerning your point that algebra is "essential" to higher order thinking.
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have you ever played sports? in preparation for that sport, did you ever lift weights? subjects like algebra are weightlifting for the mind. it builds the intellect like weightlifting builds muscle.

now, again, why does the idea of teaching kids algebra annoy you?
 
radcen said:
The title of the article is the question.
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What?

Maybe the "unnecessary stumblingblock" is lazy kids & parents lacking in providing discipline!

This is a pretty ridiculous question!
 
Chomsky said:
What?

Maybe the "unnecessary stumblingblock" is lazy kids & parents lacking in providing discipline!

This is a pretty ridiculous question!
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While the answer is seemingly obvious (in this case), I don't think the question is ridiculous. I think we should be occasionally reassessing our training standards to make sure that we are indeed getting bang for our buck while not retaining a bunch of now irrelevant crap that is no longer pertinent.
 
Baralis said:
I imagine everyone will have their own idea on what is essential or non essential curriculum. I personally feel that public education should be about preparing a person for life and a potential career first and foremost. I believe that a lot of what is taught in school can and does expand ones general knowledge and understanding but much of it is not strictly used in a persons daily life. In this age of internet and its easy access to knowledge on any given subject that we would be better served if we stuck to basic usable education and left everything else for a person to learn on there own time. With the time and money saved by removing unnecessary curriculum we could be giving a more specialized education that better prepares a person for a career or interest.

You asked what I felt could be left out and here are just some of the things that I feel we could leave up to the individuals.


History - I consider this a general knowledge subject but in reality how much does a persons use it in there day to day?
Physical Education - In my time in public school PE never taught us anything about physical education and we had it an hour every day, every year. We did play sports or whatnot but as far as a usable education PE was a joke.
Chemistry - Better left for specialized education mentioned above. Not what I consider knowledge used in day to day by a majority of people.
Music - Again better for specialized classes for those that are interested but for most I feel it is a waste of time.

And more.. but I believe you get the point I am trying to make.
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You misunderstood my question. Your response implied you felt math was unnecessary. I asked for examples of students' special interests or needs that ultimately would never include math.

But since you opened the door:

History is the most egregious--seriously? People shouldn't study history unless it interested them? If all you got from history was a list of names and dates, you missed the point. A large portion of simply making good decisions is knowing prior events as well as understanding the sociological context in which any present dilemma exists, the abilities of which are gained through the study of history. Apart from public policy, if being a responsible voter wasn't enough for you, this easily extends to business decisions as well, and it doesn't matter how limited a scope one has--understanding history is having a basic sense of how people work when faced with change or opposition, and nearly everyone in the workforce is eventually put into a circumstance of having decisions to make involving others. Granted, I still think being a responsible voters is the bigger point here--unless you're fascist, in which case ignore it.

PE is one part education, one part social development, and three parts simply maintaining health through exercise. If you're so concerned about the education part, then the critical piece of PE is sex ed. Is preventing teen pregnancy and STD epidemics that unimportant to you?

Chemistry I might be able to see, if I didn't actually use chemistry in my day to day life, and it has nothing to do with my job. This is something you don't actually realize is useful until you know it, but touches on everything from cooking to maintaining a stable body condition. People can get by without knowing it, but chemistry is more integral to understanding the world around you than everything else you mention.

Music isn't a requirement in the first place, at least not everywhere. I never had to study music. I have seen that students who have studied music are more well-rounded individuals, but I'd be willing to concede the point if only for my own ignorance.
 
Lursa said:
In what?
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In what? You mean what do people use algebra for?

Well, there's the obvious application such as if you're on a train that just left Chicago traveling 75mph and another train coming from New York.......:lol:

But seriously, just figuring out whether that box of corn flakes in your hand is a better value than the other brand on the shelf is simple algebra.
 
gavinfielder said:
You misunderstood my question. Your response implied you felt math was unnecessary. I asked for examples of students' special interests or needs that ultimately would never include math.

But since you opened the door:

History is the most egregious--seriously? People shouldn't study history unless it interested them? If all you got from history was a list of names and dates, you missed the point. A large portion of simply making good decisions is knowing prior events as well as understanding the sociological context in which any present dilemma exists, the abilities of which are gained through the study of history. Apart from public policy, if being a responsible voter wasn't enough for you, this easily extends to business decisions as well, and it doesn't matter how limited a scope one has--understanding history is having a basic sense of how people work when faced with change or opposition, and nearly everyone in the workforce is eventually put into a circumstance of having decisions to make involving others. Granted, I still think being a responsible voters is the bigger point here--unless you're fascist, in which case ignore it.

PE is one part education, one part social development, and three parts simply maintaining health through exercise. If you're so concerned about the education part, then the critical piece of PE is sex ed. Is preventing teen pregnancy and STD epidemics that unimportant to you?

Chemistry I might be able to see, if I didn't actually use chemistry in my day to day life, and it has nothing to do with my job. This is something you don't actually realize is useful until you know it, but touches on everything from cooking to maintaining a stable body condition. People can get by without knowing it, but chemistry is more integral to understanding the world around you than everything else you mention.

Music isn't a requirement in the first place, at least not everywhere. I never had to study music. I have seen that students who have studied music are more well-rounded individuals, but I'd be willing to concede the point if only for my own ignorance.
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I appreciate your reply.


I am basing things off my own personal experience and I image that will differ a great degree among people. I attended public school in the mid-west about 25 years ago and I feel that much of it was extremely lacking and in some case bordered indoctrination particularly in history.

We had mandatory music class one hour a day from grade 1-6 and again in grade 8. Physical education was completely different than sex ed, we had sex ed in home economics/health class. In our version of physical ed we did have some physical activity depending on the weather which I consider important but even that was very inconstant. If weather was cold or wet as it was much of the school year we would often sit on the bleachers and socialize with friends for the hour, very little learning was put into place.

I guess my whole point is I think we could use a more individually tailored curriculum. If for example I had spent the amount of hours studying a more specialized field instead of the what I consider my wasted hours in music and physical Ed I probably could have acquired a doctorates degree in medicine.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
All your trades. plumbing, heating, AC, electrical, to name a few. How will I figure out what size pipes to use without math? How will I figure out what size wire to run without math? How will I know how many registers I need in a room without math? I need math to figure out what size fart fan to put in a bathroom for god sake. What do you think we do just guess at the size. You think you can build a bridge or football stadium without math? The biggest stumbling block for people entering into the trades are math and science.
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Math is not algebra. Algebra is a subset of math. So that doesnt really work. I use math all the time in life, but as far as I know, not algebra.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
When 90% of that is forgotten by the average person, not long after school.
It doesn't matter.

It may be great for you, but otherwise kids are just going through the motions to get it done.
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So you believe that kids forget 'how to think critically?' Because that was the point he was making (I believe), not the nuts and bolts of the classes.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
A lot of those things are being automated by programs.
I work in logistics right now.

At best you'll use functions for xcel spreadsheets, the bane of the world.
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Yes, it would be so much better for people to never develop critical thinking skills and just use tools to do it for them /sarcasm.

Yes, I disagree with that premise.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
You can teach critical thinking and logic, it just requires a teacher skilled in it.
I don't believe most are though.
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Name some curriculae they are using for that now, up to high school level.

Please do. Please let us know how they are teaching critical thinking & logic without tying it to subject areas already designed to do that with applicable foundations (like algebra or comparative literature)?
 
SocialD said:
If you get paid 20$ an hour and have 1800$ a month in bills how many hours this month can you slack and not work so you can relax and have a few margaritas you have in that picture.
That's basic algebra that people use all the time.
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That's algebra? Prove it...let's see the formula :mrgreen:
 
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