The Dumbing Down of America

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

Not only America AlbqOwl. It looks to me that standards in higher education are falling throughout much of the western world. But what do I know? My only experience of universities is through moocs.

Democracy can only work well if voters are informed. And a grounding in history and economics seems to me to be essential.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Click to expand...

This looks promising

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics.

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They're busy learning English and Math. And taking tests.

Meanwhile, schools are bogged down with mainstreaming special education students. This can be very beneficial for those students, but are expensive, and can drag down a school's achievement scores, and utilize a lot of a school's resources.

Oh, and there are some indications that the best way to help the schools is via racial integration, a policy that many (white) Americans still despise and reject with a deep passion (hatred?). (https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ation-is-the-best-way-to-improve-our-schools/ and The Problem We All Live With | This American Life)

Anyway....

They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them.... They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system....

Click to expand...

You mean, they aren't being indoctrinated into conservative drones? Tell us more.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards.

Click to expand...

Yeah, man! Shut down the message boards! Shut down DPR!!!

Oh, wait.

Some anecdotal evidence

Click to expand...

lol

Try to find some real evidence please, kthx.

By the way, who gets to design the civics curriculum? Consider the fate of Common Core. CC was developed by 48 states, incorporating input and feedback from teachers, citizens and state education departments. It is voluntary for the states, states decide for themselves how to implement it, it is not enforced by any federal standards, and is non-partisan. And yet, it has in no small part turned into a partisan lightning rod (most likely because Obama spoke in favor of it). There should be no question that any similar attempt with a civics education will face the same fate -- with far more intensity, given its subject matter.

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

In theory, a nice basic civics and history class would be great.

In practice, setting it up would be politicized faster than you can say "King George III". Could be tough.

Visbek said:

This looks promising



They're busy learning English and Math. And taking tests.

Meanwhile, schools are bogged down with mainstreaming special education students. This can be very beneficial for those students, but are expensive, and can drag down a school's achievement scores, and utilize a lot of a school's resources.

Oh, and there are some indications that the best way to help the schools is via racial integration, a policy that many (white) Americans still despise and reject with a deep passion (hatred?). (https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ation-is-the-best-way-to-improve-our-schools/ and The Problem We All Live With | This American Life)

Anyway....



You mean, they aren't being indoctrinated into conservative drones? Tell us more.



Yeah, man! Shut down the message boards! Shut down DPR!!!

Oh, wait.



lol

Try to find some real evidence please, kthx.

By the way, who gets to design the civics curriculum? Consider the fate of Common Core. CC was developed by 48 states, incorporating input and feedback from teachers, citizens and state education departments. It is voluntary for the states, states decide for themselves how to implement it, it is not enforced by any federal standards, and is non-partisan. And yet, it has in no small part turned into a partisan lightning rod (most likely because Obama spoke in favor of it). There should be no question that any similar attempt with a civics education will face the same fate -- with far more intensity, given its subject matter.



In theory, a nice basic civics and history class would be great.

In practice, setting it up would be politicized faster than you can say "King George III". Could be tough.

Click to expand...

Obviously you don't like the way the OP is phrased and have chosen to read into it a lot that wasn't said. But can you rebut any of it? Take you time. We'll wait.

There does seem to be a dearth of critical thinking skills.
Simple stuff, like identifying the critical path to completing a task.

Education needs to at least equip people to be productive members of society. That means giving them useful skills and teaching them to be able to reason and argue so they participate in their own governance. So yes students need a solid grounding in basic economics, history and the principals upon which the country was founded.

AlbqOwl said:

Obviously you don't like the way the OP is phrased and have chosen to read into it a lot that wasn't said. But can you rebut any of it? Take you time. We'll wait.

Click to expand...

Yes. Since you missed it:

• Schools are already pretty busy with basic skills and special education, and not doing the one thing that might really improve school achievement (pushing for racial integration)

• There is obviously substantial resistance to any attempt to set national standards for education (including ones devised collaboratively by the states)

• It would create epic levels of partisan feuding

Depends on the school. But I would like to see more focus on critical thinking skills, the scientific method, and financial planning.

I often see people want to move away from what they consider liberal brainwashing but just want to replace it with the conservative equivalent. I would prefer our schools not be recruitment grounds for various political ideologies.

I am also disheartened by the fact that for a long time now our schools, from elementary through post-grad, have been geared toward turning our children into good little workers. As huge corporations take over more and more of the various market sectors it seems the entrepreneurial spirit is dwindling. I would like to see that spirit reignited and have our kids take control of their own financial destinies rather than just being groomed to be cogs in the ever growing corporate machine.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

If people actually started to think independently they might end up deciding that they don't need as much government involvement in their lives and we can't be having any of that!!

AlbqOwl said:

Obviously you don't like the way the OP is phrased and have chosen to read into it a lot that wasn't said. But can you rebut any of it? Take you time. We'll wait.

Click to expand...

Visbek and others have made some good points though. I do agree with at least some of what you say but when I saw the title The Dumbing Down of America, I thought this was going to be a discussion about education and testing standards and how those were dumbed down.
I think there would be a lot more common ground ideologically on that and might prove interesting.
Common core is part of that which was touched on. lowering testing standards otherwise such as SAT/ACT is more .. there is a lot to that.
I think to a degree as the usa has slipped in measurement to some other countries, particularly Asian countries, in math and science the usa has tweaked scores to try and give a false sense of measuring up.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

Yes. US History as well as World History, basic economic theories and how they compare and contrast with our form of government, and of course civics so that young people will maybe, finally, have an idea about what our form of government actually is and is not.

For evidence of a need to make it required for graduation, all you actually have to do is look at any given thread on this forum that deals with politics, economics, the constitution, or role of government.

EDIT: Add a course in critical thinking. A lost art.

Beaudreaux said:

Yes. US History as well as World History, basic economic theories and how they compare and contrast with our form of government, and of course civics so that young people will maybe, finally, have an idea about what our form of government actually is and is not.

For evidence of a need to make it required for graduation, all you actually have to do is look at any given thread on this forum that deals with politics, economics, the constitution, or role of government.

EDIT: Add a course in critical thinking. A lost art.

Click to expand...

Why not make historiography a required course?

Unitedwestand13 said:

Why not make historiography a required course?

Click to expand...

Why would we want a class on writing history for everyone as a requirement in High School? If a person wanted to major in historiography in college, then I'm pretty sure that it would be a requirement for graduation at that point, as would creative writing it would appear.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

They are not teaching math either, evidently. I had to let a college grad go today who was working for me part time. He couldn't read a tape measure and ended up costing me about me about $1100.00 in materials for a mahogany shelf system.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

some of that may be deemed too heavy until high school, but most of it can and SHOULD be learned as they go

starting from the earliest grades

those who fail to learn from history are apt to repeat the same errors....

too much of their time in classrooms is taught learning "the tests"

not how to think, or to be creative....

what is the saying....a mind is a terrible thing to waste.....

we are wasting way too many of them dumbing down classrooms, and teaching to the lowest common denominator

Beaudreaux said:

Why would we want a class on writing history for everyone as a requirement in High School? If a person wanted to major in historiography in college, then I'm pretty sure that it would be a requirement for graduation at that point, as would creative writing it would appear.

Click to expand...

I took historiography as a class in order to fulfill part of my requirements to earn my BA in history.

I found historiography interesting because I was exposed to different styles and interpretations of history. I got to read and interpret the works of Charles A. Beard, Hofstatder, Henry Adams, Leopold Von Ranke, Eric Hobesbawm, Howard Zinn and other historians

Visbek said:

Yes. Since you missed it:

• Schools are already pretty busy with basic skills and special education, and not doing the one thing that might really improve school achievement (pushing for racial integration)

• There is obviously substantial resistance to any attempt to set national standards for education (including ones devised collaboratively by the states)

• It would create epic levels of partisan feuding

Click to expand...

The OP did not address what other subjects should be part of the core curriculum. You have not provided an argument for why basic history and economics should not be part of the core curriculum unless you are saying they don't have time to teach it--that would be a rebuttal of sorts. In my opinion the federal government should not be involved in education in any way other than possibly being a central collection station to collect data from everywhere to share with all. And the OP intentionally avoided any reference to partisanship or partisan feuding. So I'm still waiting for a rebuttal to the points made in the OP.

Lutherf said:

If people actually started to think independently they might end up deciding that they don't need as much government involvement in their lives and we can't be having any of that!!

Click to expand...

Well hmmm. It might also affect who they voted for when they went to the polls, too. And I can see why those who benefit from being in government or benefit most from government wouldn't want to upset the status quo. But what the heck. Let's shoot for it anyway.

Unitedwestand13 said:

I took historiography as a class in order to fulfill part of my requirements to earn my BA in history.

I found historiography interesting because I was exposed to different styles and interpretations of history. I got to read and interpret the works of Charles A. Beard, Hofstatder, Henry Adams, Leopold Von Ranke, Eric Hobesbawm, Howard Zinn and other historians

Click to expand...

Well, there you go. You majored in history, therefore the subject was both germane and useful to your studies. The average student, when studying history, doesn't have the need to understand the different styles like Annales, Carlyle, etc.

Gifted teachers are being showed the door when they teach.

School administrations want facilitators........not teachers.

Beaudreaux said:

Well, there you go. You majored in history, therefore the subject was both germane and useful to your studies. The average student, when studying history, doesn't have the need to understand the different styles like Annales, Carlyle, etc.

Click to expand...

But if one wants to apply critical thinking skills, being introduced to different interpretations of history never hurts.

SocialD said:

Visbek and others have made some good points though. I do agree with at least some of what you say but when I saw the title The Dumbing Down of America, I thought this was going to be a discussion about education and testing standards and how those were dumbed down.
I think there would be a lot more common ground ideologically on that and might prove interesting.
Common core is part of that which was touched on. lowering testing standards otherwise such as SAT/ACT is more .. there is a lot to that.
I think to a degree as the usa has slipped in measurement to some other countries, particularly Asian countries, in math and science the usa has tweaked scores to try and give a false sense of measuring up.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree but there are numerous threads out there regarding the pros and cons of Common Core. My focus here was intended to be more on WHAT is being taught, not so much in the methods used to test it. I don't believe anybody is ever really educated without a solid and honest grounding in our nation's history, including what the Constitution was intended to be along with basic fundamentals of civics, government, and economics.

RetiredUSN said:

They are not teaching math either, evidently. I had to let a college grad go today who was working for me part time. He couldn't read a tape measure and ended up costing me about me about $1100.00 in materials for a mahogany shelf system.

Click to expand...

I know it is really a subjective thing, but I honestly think if the schools were teaching honest history, government, civics, and economics, the general reading and math education would also significantly improve.

AlbqOwl said:

The Dumbing Down of America

Proposed:

The modern generations are not being taught our history, our Constitution, or basic civics. They aren't being taught the reasoning of the Founders or about the great philosophers who informed them. Modern day students are not being required to study the Founding Documents or the circumstance that encouraged people to risk everything to come here and then to form a new nation.

They are not being taught basic economics, the principles of supply and demand in a free market system, the pros and cons of economic systems, or all the effect of government programs. The are not exposed to or encouraged to hear all points of view or use critical thinking to evaluate them.

They are spoon fed sound bites and slogans and the politically correct dogma of the day. Or what they know is gleaned from bits and pieces of internet sources or sounds bites from television or message boards. In short, too often they are being indoctrinated and effectively brainwashed instead of educated.

Some anecdotal evidence:

https://www.facebook.com/gorillapigspage/videos/887671784663955/?pnref=story

youtube watters world interviews - Bing video

youtube people can't answer political questions - Bing video

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION: Should basic history/economics as described here be core curriculum, and should students have a reasonable command of it before graduating high school and college? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

As far as I know, American History and Civics are still taught in our schools. The fact that young people don't know history doesn't mean they weren't taught it in school. It just means they didn't do their homework, or they didn't pay attention, which is a parenting problem. People are not required to attend good parenting classes before having children. Until they are, we will see this sort of thing.

I liked American History and Civics, but as I recall, not many other kids did. Of course, it's more interesting in documentaries, such as can be found on PBS (not those dramatic fictional so-called historical accounts you see on network stations).

Hopefully the govt will continue assisting PBS with funding, so that these programs can continue to be made, bought, and shown. They are free to the public. In urban areas, most need only have an antenna to get broadcast stations like PBS.

I would make it required viewing for ALL kids in the country to watch all nine segments of Ken Burns' The Civil War, for starters. Then they'd have to watch:

PBS American Experience episodes - The Pilgrims
PBS American Experience episodes - The Mine Wars
PBS American Experience episodes - War Letters
PBS American Experience episodes - Death and the Civil War
PBS American Experience episodes - The Triangle Fire
PBS American Experience episodes - The Crash of 1929
PBS American Experience episodes - Hoover Dam
PBS American Experience episodes - U. S. Grant, Warrior
PBS American Experience episodes - Robert E. Lee
PBS - The American Revolution
and many others.

Unitedwestand13 said:

But if one wants to apply critical thinking skills, being introduced to different interpretations of history never hurts.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree. It's a matter of time available versus subjects needed to be taught within that limited timespan. That's why I said that people majoring in history would be the primary consumer of that knowledge.