Ikari

If by "quite a task" you mean completely trivial, then I agree. Try solving non-linear quantum optics problems after a couple beers, then get back to me.

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UtahBill

Drinking on the job? Let me guess, airline pilot, or astronaut?

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Ikari

Just your run of the mill atomic, molecular, and optical physicist.

UtahBill

If you had to teach any of that to me, you would have an excuse to drink on the job.

Ikari

my research is reason enough to drink...in fact, where's my coffee?

RightinNYC

The solution to this is simple - take classes where the grade is solely based on papers/exams.

I didn't have to do "homework" for my last 2 years of undergrad.

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RightinNYC

Ikari, I completely agree with you on the idea behind your argument - I think that in high school, most kids need the structure of the homework to force them to get good study habits and to learn the material necessary. I even think that in some intro college classes, it's a good thing because it ensures that students make the transition easily. But once you reach a certain point, "homework" in the sense of weekly assignments isn't necessary. I'm not saying that professors can't/shouldn't assign it, but rather that students who are serious about their studies don't need the structure of homework to keep them from slacking off.

I like the fact that my upper level courses and now my law courses are so open-ended. For the kids who want to skip class all semester and just cram for the exam, there's the chance that they might do well and save time. But if they don't do well, they have only themselves to answer to. I like the freedom to skip a class or ignore a reading assignment for a topic that I understand, because it gives me the time to spend an extra hour or two working on a concept that I don't get as easily. Given the nature of PhD research, you know as well as anyone that high level scholarship is almost entirely self-motivated. I think that students need to start build that sense of independence early on.

new coup for you

The purpose of lower education is to build mental discipline. Anyone that isn't brain dead could learn everything taught in lower education in under a year, they make you repeat it so much to build your critical thinking skills.

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Ikari

Having been in academia for so long, having taught labs and TA'ed big courses, and even teaching a few lectures of the big courses and upper division undergrad; I can say that at the very least in science and mathematics this point does not come. Maybe in less strenuous subjects people can actually slack off and not do the work and still satisfy the requirements for the course (to which I would say there was something wrong with the requirements of the course). First off, the slackers are cleared out before reaching higher division because you have to do the homework to be able to understand the material better and those not willing to do the homework fail out. There's always the business and psychology departments for those folk.

Secondly, because science and math are very open ended subjects, what is taught is not specific solutions to one particular problem; but rather techniques for problem solving which must be practiced and homework gives this practice. It gives the teacher feedback as to how the students are learning, it gives the students feedback as to what they do and do not understand, and it gives a grade "cushion" in case there is a test you don't do well on. Homework in general is very beneficial to both teacher and student

Doesn't even sound like a challenge. PhD work is a lot of persona motivation to do the reading, to do the math, to learn the system, to build your equipment in the shop, to design and make your own electronics (which includes a crap load of learning about electronics), etc. All this is necessary for PhD in Physics. You have to be good in the shop and the lab, and thus only the more motivated will get through. However, in general for the student body as a whole this is not the case. Physics probably above all other subjects has the highest concentration of intelligent and self-motivated people, but even we can't get away from homework. Students do need to learn to become independent, but you don't really do that by throwing the whole lot of them off a cliff and seeing which ones fly. University is to be the highest and most rigorous of academic standards and you are to get a well rounded education and ample opportunity for growth. University does not want massive failure rates, and the professors don't want massive failure rates (believe it or not, they are damned honest about wanting to teach and they're wish is to be able to get as many as their students learning the material as possible), so they are taught many things. Including doing homework, and that doing the requirements of the class are in their best interest.

Homework serves a very important function, it provides feedback for both teacher and student so that the subject matter can be taught more effectively. It doesn't set students up for failure by giving the sucker bet of doing well on the tests will mean they don't have to turn in their homework. It lowers failure rate out of classes (and this is damned well tested, don't think that University and professors aren't looking for new, efficient means of teaching. The methods they employ are employed because they found them to work well) which is good for the University and the student. People want to bitch about doing homework, but they're just being lazy. I never had a single semester below 18 credit hours (that was my last semester...I took it easy), I was an officer in my fraternity for a few years, I was on student council, I was president of SPS and VP of Chem club for parts of it, I helped establish the Anime club (yes, I'm a dork; I already know it, don't feel the need to point it out). And despite all that I still had time to party and do all my homework and be on the Dean's List nearly every semester of college.

None of this is tough, you just have to quit bitching long enough to do the damned work.

RightinNYC

I'm not saying that "homework" in the sense of outside work and practice is unnecessary, I'm saying that its not necessary for the professors to assign it, collect it, and grade it, because the students are intelligent and motivated enough to do the outside work on their own.

I haven't really had a "homework" assignment in years. There's assigned reading that would give you a grasp of the subject and practice problems that you can do if you like, but professors don't give a **** if you're doing them/turning them in. What they care about is that you're learning the subject material.

Again, it's possible to put in the necessary effort to excel in a subject without being forced to turn in homework assignments. This is especially true of higher divisions without slackers, as you note.

I don't disagree that in some cases its useful, but it's not always so. IMO, class discussions and TA sections are much more useful for seeing how a student is doing than simply reading a homework assignment.

I don't think that requiring a 22 year old in an upper level course to be responsible for staying up to date on their own work is "throwing him off a cliff." Upperclassmen are in most cases a very short time away from entering the job market. Nobody there is going to hold their hand, giving them assignments day by day to help them work toward a final project. If I'm assigned a case by a partner, he disappears for a few months and relies on me to handle the preliminary research, initial motions, and due diligence. He comes back when the case is ready to go to the next step and I better damn well understand the ins and outs of the entire case.

The motivation to go off and do work on your own that does not have an immediate cost or reward is one of the most important to develop, and I think college is the perfect place to start learning it for most people.

I don't think you can claim that it's only "lazy" students who think homework is useless. I also took 18 credits a semester, ran my fraternity, was president of the History Society and EiC of the History journal, played sports, and worked 30 hours a week. I avoided classes that had daily assignments because I preferred to spend the time that I would have spent on mundane assignments on things like writing my thesis. I didn't and don't need the threat of having to turn in a worksheet to get me to do my work, and I did alright for myself. I'd say that the majority of students at my school that I've talked to have the same attitude.