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Online learning: Step on the rail and you're toast.

Boo Radley

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I was discussing online learning earlier, and it had been a while since I looked at overall numbers. So, on a quick look I saw this:

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online?

By Rob Jenkins
Online learning has become the third rail in American higher-education politics: Step on it and you're toast.

(snip)

With countless studies showing success rates in online courses of only 50 per cent—as opposed to 70-to-75 percent for comparable face-to-face classes— isn't it time we asked ourselves some serious questions? Such as: Should every course be taught online? And should we allow every student—or any student who wishes to—to take online courses?

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online? - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education

So, should we?

 
You should allow them, but inform them that this decision will likely have a negative impact on their schooling experience grade wise and otherwise also.
I had a friend who is a reasonably smart guy(low 30's act) who did online schooling in FRESHMAN year of HIGHSCHOOL. He failed 2 "core" classes math/science and also German. He explained his troubles in a pretty brief but telling statement-"lack of a teacher". Note- there were online teachers but he stated that they were not really helpful and often could not act as a true guiding hand.
Now, I'm not sure how well this would apply to "paid" online higher education
 
You should allow them, but inform them that this decision will likely have a negative impact on their schooling experience grade wise and otherwise also.
I had a friend who is a reasonably smart guy(low 30's act) who did online schooling in FRESHMAN year of HIGHSCHOOL. He failed 2 "core" classes math/science and also German. He explained his troubles in a pretty brief but telling statement-"lack of a teacher". Note- there were online teachers but he stated that they were not really helpful and often could not act as a true guiding hand.
Now, I'm not sure how well this would apply to "paid" online higher education

Teachers are ususally there, but the communication is usually written, and like all communication, there are sometimes issue understandning one another. I would also say it can become too easy for both sides to put the computer off to deal with more pressing matters (or more fun). Most of my students who fail are late even getting started. They seem to think on line means they can do it all a week before the ocurse ends.
 
I had the opportunity to do some training from home for a week last month and one the things I noticed immediately is that, I am next to too many distractions and I NEED an office if I am to work effectively. Not that I did go into an office that week (because people would be forever going into my office needing this or that which would also take away from my training). At least for me, a classroom is the same way.

My wife is taking her masters degree online and she is able to make it work, but its not something I am good at. In fact, when I went back to college to get my bachelors, I choose to go to the more expensive school where I had to show up in class to enforce discipline on myself because I know myself too well.

I doubt I am the only one like this.
 
I got something entirely different from the read. He points out that it's inevitable that more and more education will be online. He's not really debating that.

He writes:
If students and their prospective employers ever begin to suspect that, in our rush to offer everything online, we have oversold and underdelivered, then it's going to be too late for us to have that discussion. Politicians will have it for us.

The author is basically telling educators they need to get their collective heads out of their asses and construct better online courses, and better ways to evaluate if the online version isn't working and what action should be taken. And if they fail at this, government will step in. Which seems like reasonable advice.

In his own case, his idea that speech should NOT be taught online, was demonstrated to be absurd by a colleague who turned around and created a presumably top-notch online speech course. Individual innovation as opposed to collective nay-saying..works every time? No, but it's the best at working most of the time.

As to me personally, when it's a subject I don't like, a classroom works best because I feel more obligation to learn boring things.
When it's a topic I have incentive to learn, would prefer to have access to it in written form. That is, I don't usually even want an online "course", that would be tedious. I just want well organized information with examples and references.
 
Online courses don't work for everybody, and even those who do well in them generally might need face-to-face for certain subjects.

All of my courses have been online since I returned to school (20 so far) and I have a 3.957 GPA (stupid B in math..). But some people can't self-manage, forget deadlines, or don't get the material and have a hard time figuring it out on their own, or coordinating their schedule to meet with the professor during office hours.

If you do badly in your first online class, reconsider it. Don't keep doing it thinking it'll change.
 
I was discussing online learning earlier, and it had been a while since I looked at overall numbers. So, on a quick look I saw this:

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online?

By Rob Jenkins
Online learning has become the third rail in American higher-education politics: Step on it and you're toast.

(snip)

With countless studies showing success rates in online courses of only 50 per cent—as opposed to 70-to-75 percent for comparable face-to-face classes— isn't it time we asked ourselves some serious questions? Such as: Should every course be taught online? And should we allow every student—or any student who wishes to—to take online courses?

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online? - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education

So, should we?


S'matter? Threatening teaching positions? Why would anyone want to stop people from taking online courses? That's ridiculous. In fact, I don't know why they don't use computers in the classroom more than they already do. Same reason, I suppose.
 
S'matter? Threatening teaching positions? Why would anyone want to stop people from taking online courses? That's ridiculous. In fact, I don't know why they don't use computers in the classroom more than they already do. Same reason, I suppose.

Teachers are actually hired to teach online. Some are actually paid more to do so. Some schools actually charge students more. So, the motivation for terachers is to have more online course. hell, here, the state will give the school money to create more. The problem is they have a hirer fail rate. You don;t think we should be concerned about that? Just take the money and say thanks?
 
I was discussing online learning earlier, and it had been a while since I looked at overall numbers. So, on a quick look I saw this:

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online?

By Rob Jenkins
Online learning has become the third rail in American higher-education politics: Step on it and you're toast.

(snip)

With countless studies showing success rates in online courses of only 50 per cent—as opposed to 70-to-75 percent for comparable face-to-face classes— isn't it time we asked ourselves some serious questions? Such as: Should every course be taught online? And should we allow every student—or any student who wishes to—to take online courses?

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online? - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education

So, should we?


Some classes cannot be taught online - but anything that's purely lecture/book CAN be . . . maybe the occasional fieldtrip for certain classes if needed.

The hardest thing for me was fussing with online websites and technology that did *NOT* want to cooperate: the Blackboard system was always glitching up. Several times I had to call IT to sort out my access-issues. School computers didn't always have the same software loaded - and updates weren't always smooth. Websites that were part of an assignment didn't always work right - to the point of not being able to complete tasks at all sometimes. It was beyond annoying. I had more issues because of hardware and software tech than the content of the class itself.

I still managed an A - but it wasn't without ripping my hair out and going completely insane in the process
 
We had this debate in the Michigan legislature earlier this year and our office was lobbied quite heavily by both proponents and opponents of it.

Once we uncovered the statistics with the very high failure rate for online students and asked the proponents of it to justify it an interesting picture began to develop. We we re told that the 50% failure rate is due to

1- many of the kids who enroll in these programs are already the bottom of the barrel (phrase actually used by the way) and have terrible records academically. So its not "fair" to compare them to the average kid.

2- its still in its infancy and they are getting the bugs out as we speak and those numbers should change shortly.

3 - what they really need is more and more and more public funding which will give them more resources and then the numbers will change.

I found that very very interesting.
 
I got something entirely different from the read. He points out that it's inevitable that more and more education will be online. He's not really debating that.

He writes:


The author is basically telling educators they need to get their collective heads out of their asses and construct better online courses, and better ways to evaluate if the online version isn't working and what action should be taken. And if they fail at this, government will step in. Which seems like reasonable advice.

In his own case, his idea that speech should NOT be taught online, was demonstrated to be absurd by a colleague who turned around and created a presumably top-notch online speech course. Individual innovation as opposed to collective nay-saying..works every time? No, but it's the best at working most of the time.

As to me personally, when it's a subject I don't like, a classroom works best because I feel more obligation to learn boring things.
When it's a topic I have incentive to learn, would prefer to have access to it in written form. That is, I don't usually even want an online "course", that would be tedious. I just want well organized information with examples and references.

I agree. It is inevitable.

But read what you quoted again. It is my point. The "so should we" is to have that discussion.
 
Why not? We've been doing that in our poor, gang-infested neighborhoods for years.

Have they? Or do we just not see those who succeeded despite the poor, gang-infested neighborhoods with the help of that abused teacher who fought to good fight?
 
Online courses tend to be much more difficult than the face-to-face courses and require much more self management. If you can do that, online classes are an excellent alternative to the traditional classroom.

It seems that a lot of people have this notion that online classes are easier, which may explain the higher failure rate.

Actually, I remember in some community college courses having kids who couldn't even manage themselves in the well structured classroom, so that could be the issue too.
 
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I agree. It is inevitable.
But read what you quoted again. It is my point. The "so should we" is to have that discussion.

The OP author claims that educators SHOULD do a better job preparing and evaluating online courses. I agree.
Do you?
 
The OP author claims that educators SHOULD do a better job preparing and evaluating online courses. I agree.
Do you?

Of course. Read what I said earlier.

However, that is not the only problem.
 
Involvement of Professors and students in developing the professor-student relationship, structure, and a different environment to study are contributing factors.
 
Adults learn in different ways. Some people will greatly benefit from taking classes on line; some will not. No one should choose that option for them.
 
Online courses tend to be much more difficult than the face-to-face courses and require much more self management. If you can do that, online classes are an excellent alternative to the traditional classroom.

It seems that a lot of people have this notion that online classes are easier, which may explain the higher failure rate.

Actually, I remember in some community college courses having kids who couldn't even manage themselves in the well structured classroom, so that could be the issue too.

Precisely. The failure rate is because nobody like me is there to slap a meterstick on their desk when a student is slacking off. Many people, especially students, need someone (teacher, personal trainer, etc.) to light a fire under their ass to get them to actually push themselves to achieve results.
 
I was discussing online learning earlier, and it had been a while since I looked at overall numbers. So, on a quick look I saw this:

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online?

By Rob Jenkins
Online learning has become the third rail in American higher-education politics: Step on it and you're toast.

(snip)

With countless studies showing success rates in online courses of only 50 per cent—as opposed to 70-to-75 percent for comparable face-to-face classes— isn't it time we asked ourselves some serious questions? Such as: Should every course be taught online? And should we allow every student—or any student who wishes to—to take online courses?

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online? - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education

So, should we?
I suspect that a lot of it has to do with self-discipline... which would be the hardest aspect to address.


Teachers are actually hired to teach online. Some are actually paid more to do so. Some schools actually charge students more. So, the motivation for terachers is to have more online course. hell, here, the state will give the school money to create more. The problem is they have a hirer fail rate. You don;t think we should be concerned about that? Just take the money and say thanks?
I see absolutely zero rationalization or justification for this. What they might pay more for in salaries they more than make up for in savings for standard overhead costs with brick & mortar facilities. To me, charging more is just gouging people and preying on the concept of convenience.


We had this debate in the Michigan legislature earlier this year and our office was lobbied quite heavily by both proponents and opponents of it.

Once we uncovered the statistics with the very high failure rate for online students and asked the proponents of it to justify it an interesting picture began to develop. We we re told that the 50% failure rate is due to

1- many of the kids who enroll in these programs are already the bottom of the barrel (phrase actually used by the way) and have terrible records academically. So its not "fair" to compare them to the average kid.

2- its still in its infancy and they are getting the bugs out as we speak and those numbers should change shortly.

3 - what they really need is more and more and more public funding which will give them more resources and then the numbers will change.

I found that very very interesting.
I'm sorry, but... :roll:

I do agree that there are still some bugs to work out, but more money is not always the answer.


The OP author claims that educators SHOULD do a better job preparing and evaluating online courses. I agree.
Do you?
In my experience with online courses over the last couple years I can say that they're all over the board. Some are great and well thought out. Some are horrible, and simply the instructor scanning in-class materials and essentially saying, "Here you go. Now leave me alone until time to take the final." (Ok , not that extreme, but I'm not exaggerating by much.)

As result, I do believe that an online course canNOT be a simple mirror of an in-person class by the same instructor. Online, by it's very nature, has different needs. Doesn't necessarily have to be a complete rewrite of the course, but something to address the differences.


Adults learn in different ways. Some people will greatly benefit from taking classes on line; some will not. No one should choose that option for them.
Yep. Just as some are visual learners, some verbal, and so on.
 
I suspect that a lot of it has to do with self-discipline... which would be the hardest aspect to address
.

On that I agree.

I see absolutely zero rationalization or justification for this. What they might pay more for in salaries they more than make up for in savings for standard overhead costs with brick & mortar facilities. To me, charging more is just gouging people and preying on the concept of convenience.

Nor do I see any justification or rationale, but it happens all the same. But, the market produces predators. And this is a huge problem we're facing in higher education. Predatory institutions not only gouge, but too often give nothing for the cost.


Even lobbyists for for-profit colleges must be stunned by their industry’s ability over the past two years to capture an enormous share of Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits earned by Iraq and Afghanistan war era veterans.

The gold rush is on and competition to sign veterans who have the most valuable education package since World War II will intensify and perhaps get seamier before Congress acts to protect veterans and taxpayers.

Statistics compiled by the staff of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pension Committee, are alarming veteran advocacy groups, particularly in light of abuses by some for-profit colleges uncovered by congressional audits and by enterprising news organizations.

During the 2010-11 academic year, VA disbursed $4.4 billion Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits to nearly 6000 institutions. Almost one quarter of those dollars –$1.02 billion –was paid to just eight for-profit companies.

(snip)

More disturbing for taxpayers and veterans is what they get for their money, senators said. Withdrawal rates for attendees at for-profit schools range from 44 percent to 68 percent, three to four times the withdrawal rates for the two non-profit schools among the top 10 recipients of GI Bill dollars, the University of Maryland System and University of Texas System.

Data also show that when veterans attend for-profit schools, the average cost to taxpayers rises to $10,875, more than twice the average cost of $4,874 to attend public college. Last year, for-profit schools collected more than one third of all Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits but trained just one quarter of the Post-9/11 veterans using benefits

FRA | GI Bill Gold Rush: Can predatory schools be stopped?

These schools aren't cheap—despite the lack of campuses or classrooms or counseling or even much personal interaction with faculty members. Again, according to the Education Department, (as reported in USA Today), for-profits cost on average $30,900 per year compared to public colleges at $15,600 and private, non-profits at $26,600.

(snip)


The incentive for these for-profits is not just to sign up more students but it is to use the loophole in the 90-10 rule which requires these schools to at least have 10 percent of their funds not from the taxpayers, not from Title IV education funds. The G.I. Bill, even though it is government money, is not technically Title IV, so it counts toward the for-profits 10 percent requirement.

To quote Holly Petraeus: "This gives for-profit colleges an incentive to see service members as nothing more that dollar signs in uniform, and to use aggressive marketing to draw them in."

For-Profit Colleges Must Crack Down on Predatory Practices - Peter Fenn (usnews.com)
 
Here in Michigan, the State legislature with the approval of our Governor, just expanded cyber schools. They will be funded at the same rate as public or charter school doing business in actual building locations with actual in person teachers and students.

Why should they get the same funding when such an allocation is based on the way schools have traditionally done business and the costs associated with that model?
 
Here in Michigan, the State legislature with the approval of our Governor, just expanded cyber schools. They will be funded at the same rate as public or charter school doing business in actual building locations with actual in person teachers and students.

Why should they get the same funding when such an allocation is based on the way schools have traditionally done business and the costs associated with that model?

If they claim to provide the same education service (mission) then yes they deserve to be funded, but I would not fund any "alternative" education system at over 80% of the current per pupil public education costs; if they can not save at least 20% of the public education costs then they are a non-starter idea in my book. Advantages are obvious if the students need not leave their homes, but social interaction with others (peers) is also an important aspect of education. Parents can certainly make the determination whether they feel that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks of several alternatives. I hope more areas try vouchers and alternatives to the ever more expensive and underperforming public schools. As with energy, we should be for "all of the above" when it comes to gov't funded services, only with competition will the best of all systems emerge.
 
I was discussing online learning earlier, and it had been a while since I looked at overall numbers. So, on a quick look I saw this:

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online?

By Rob Jenkins
Online learning has become the third rail in American higher-education politics: Step on it and you're toast.

(snip)

With countless studies showing success rates in online courses of only 50 per cent—as opposed to 70-to-75 percent for comparable face-to-face classes— isn't it time we asked ourselves some serious questions? Such as: Should every course be taught online? And should we allow every student—or any student who wishes to—to take online courses?

Why Are So Many Students Still Failing Online? - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education

So, should we?

What kind of mind would look at this study and the first thing it thinks of is "should we ban it"?

How about something somewhat intelligent like identify why online students have a higher failure rate and then address those causes?
 
What kind of mind would look at this study and the first thing it thinks of is "should we ban it"?

How about something somewhat intelligent like identify why online students have a higher failure rate and then address those causes?

Not everyone has the individual makeup, aptitude and discipline required to benefit from any higher education, yet all should be allowed to use their educational benefits as they see fit. Perhaps the fiirst thing that should be questioned is the benefits themselves, not how they are used. Many public schools have equally dismal success rates yet they are not closed or banned but continue to be made mandatory. The gov't should make this "performance" information public for all educational institutions and let the consumer be more informed, those educational institutions (public or private, primary or secondary) that fall below a minimum standard should be plainly labeled as "high risk" but also should show the actual rewards attained by their successful graduates. The special forces schools/programs in the military suffer from very high failure rates, yet still produce excellent quality graduates, they are both high risk and high reward in that respect.
 
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