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Thread: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

  1. #271
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your post is completely dishonest. It is filled with straw men.
    For one thing,
    By all means, simply post the a relatively recent claim from gates foundation, that is contradicted by a quote from your link.
    came up with results that contradict the limited Gates study about charter schools
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha
    If you re-read the link to the Gates reports, you'll see that they limited the types of charter schools they looked at. Hmmmm
    Then please, explain why you believe Gates reports about schools they were involved in, is odd. What were you expecting them to do, investigate schools that were: Please elaborate.
    Last edited by Mach; 09-26-11 at 03:51 PM.

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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    from Mach

    Haymarket, you're a teachers uninon proponent, bought, sold, and retired on it. I don't believe anything anyone can communicate to you would change your position, especially considering that gates foundation in particular, believes you're part of the problem (and the solution, but that's too much nuance for you)..
    Most excellent. So go and spout off at the mouth about professional basketball and just make sure to disqualify anybody who actually played the game who might contradict your perceptions that you got from reading magazines and watching it on TV.

    Go and engage in pompous pontification about the American automobile industry but make sure than anyone who actually aspent their professional career in that industry comes nowhere near your discussion and pollutes it with actual experience and inside information.

    Rant on about the dietary problems of the average American while sitting in your easy chair consuming 4,000 calories a day and make sure nobody with a degree in the actual subject or who has spent their adult life in the treneches dare say a word about it.

    It this attitude were not so pervasive among the far right it would be laughable.

    I don't need some stupid list of the characteristics of what makes a good teacher versus a bad teacher. Give me one hour with them and I can tell you that. A good baseball scout does not need a computer program to tell you if a kid can hit or not.

    As for charter schools ---- get this straight ...... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend because you are on a crusade and have a cause celebre to champion.............. When you talk about education in America - there is not such thing as The Public School System. There is no such thing as The Charter School System.

    And if you can figure out what that means, you will know exactly what a good portion of the problem is in this country.
    Last edited by haymarket; 09-26-11 at 04:28 PM.
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  3. #273
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    By all means, simply post the a relatively recent claim from gates foundation, that is contradicted by a quote from your link.



    Then please, explain why you believe Gates reports about schools they were involved in, is odd. What were you expecting them to do, investigate schools that were: Please elaborate.
    More straw men and more evidence that you didn't read the report that I linked to

    As the report points out, there are many factors which determine the performance of students in a charter school vs students in a public school. Some of the most important factors were the characteristics of the students.

    And I never used the word "odd". That is a straw man you are using to avoid the fact that the CREDO study was more comprehensive (and more scientific) than the Gates Foundations study
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    With that can't-do attitude, I don't know how you get out of the bed in the morning.
    You misread. I work to improve myself daily, and do do many things.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Fault, where the community is concerned, isn't the right word. Parents aren't "at fault" because they know no better. They're a product of their "schooling" as well. As for the teachers, fault's not the right word there either. It's the whole model that's wrong. Definition of insanity? Keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Change!
    Model? That's intersting. I would love to hear more.

    Then bring the role models to the school. I'm going to focus on blacks here, without prejudice. Are there no successful black businessmen and women? Are there no personal success stories? Of course there are! Monthly assemblies. Get some of them involved in personal coaching. Ask them to "give back." Look at Judge Greg Mathis. Talk about a role model. He's one of countless others. Find them. Get them involved!

    Notice I'm leaving the teachers out of the loop. Teachers alone can't do it. But they can clamor for the change that'll work.


    And, as I said earlier, let's look at ways to motivate these kids to want to learn. I don't care if they get a pair of Air Jordans for a B. Find a way.
    That has been tried, but today few see anyone uotside of parents as friends as role models. One group even went so far as to say they were their own role models and didn't appreciate us trying to change they way they spoke and wrote. It blew my mind. Now, we still keep fighting the good fight. And we do have success, even at the school i Mississippi. But there is a difference between the student there and the student at harvard, and if a teacher is going to be judged by student success, the teacher is better off to only work where there are good students to start with. That's all I'm saying.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Model? That's intersting. I would love to hear more.
    If only I HAD more. Ha! Seriously, I don't claim to have many answers, but I know what we're doing is just more of the same. And I know we need to try some controversial methods to effect change. I think quickly of The Jesse White Tumblers. Jesse White is Illinois' Secretary of State. The Jesse White Tumblers program has been in existence since 1959. Being a member means you're carrying a C or better average. Kids are lining up to get in. It's the recognition...the accolades from their myriad of public performances all over the world. It's funded by donations, with large corporations carrying the brunt of the load. The kids get college scholarships for "X" participation. If there's a program as successful, well, I'd like to know about it. And yet. There should be thirty programs or more just like it, yes? Why aren't there? How about one for drama? One for would-be rappers? And....

    How about the military. Surely there are heroes there. Can't think of a better role model for these guys and gals. I asked a man who, at the time, worked for Union Carbide why he went into the service as a young man. He said, "I knew that if I didn't get out of the neighborhood, I'd be dead or in jail in five years.

    I guess my point is we've got to try different things, 'cause what we're doin' ain't workin'. Pay 'em for A's, B's, C's. Pay the D student a bonus to bring his grade up to a C. Pay 'em now and help them become productive members of society....or pay them the rest of their lives.

    I completely appreciate what you're saying about teachers being judged by grades. But, if we switch the paradigm and judge them by their successes....well, they are far and few between. Maybe we should judge them by their ideas -- and maybe the administration and the teachers unions should get out of the way and give them autonomy in the classroom.
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If only I HAD more. Ha! Seriously, I don't claim to have many answers, but I know what we're doing is just more of the same. And I know we need to try some controversial methods to effect change. I think quickly of The Jesse White Tumblers. Jesse White is Illinois' Secretary of State. The Jesse White Tumblers program has been in existence since 1959. Being a member means you're carrying a C or better average. Kids are lining up to get in. It's the recognition...the accolades from their myriad of public performances all over the world. It's funded by donations, with large corporations carrying the brunt of the load. The kids get college scholarships for "X" participation. If there's a program as successful, well, I'd like to know about it. And yet. There should be thirty programs or more just like it, yes? Why aren't there? How about one for drama? One for would-be rappers? And....

    How about the military. Surely there are heroes there. Can't think of a better role model for these guys and gals. I asked a man who, at the time, worked for Union Carbide why he went into the service as a young man. He said, "I knew that if I didn't get out of the neighborhood, I'd be dead or in jail in five years.

    I guess my point is we've got to try different things, 'cause what we're doin' ain't workin'. Pay 'em for A's, B's, C's. Pay the D student a bonus to bring his grade up to a C. Pay 'em now and help them become productive members of society....or pay them the rest of their lives.

    I completely appreciate what you're saying about teachers being judged by grades. But, if we switch the paradigm and judge them by their successes....well, they are far and few between. Maybe we should judge them by their ideas -- and maybe the administration and the teachers unions should get out of the way and give them autonomy in the classroom.
    Fair enough. I will say this:

    Things are not as bad as many make it out to be. I work with students all then time, from many diffeent places in the country, and largely they are getting a good education. The rethoric is worse than the situation actually is. The problems are more societal than educational.

    As for role models, and I speak as an inner city kid who joined the service for the same reasons you related, the kid has to buy into that option. Some do not. Not saying it is right, only that some don't. Finding someone to connect to anyone is rather hit and miss, and often it is someone we never thought of. But I do agree with the effort.

    I would only like for reform to be more thoughtful. Less dogmatic, and less aimed at villianizing someone. Teacher for the most part are willing to tackle reform and accept responsibility. They just want it over things they can control.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #278
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Then bring the role models to the school. I'm going to focus on blacks here, without prejudice. Are there no successful black businessmen and women? Are there no personal success stories? Of course there are! Monthly assemblies. Get some of them involved in personal coaching. Ask them to "give back." Look at Judge Greg Mathis. Talk about a role model. He's one of countless others. Find them. Get them involved!

    Notice I'm leaving the teachers out of the loop. Teachers alone can't do it. But they can clamor for the change that'll work.


    And, as I said earlier, let's look at ways to motivate these kids to want to learn. I don't care if they get a pair of Air Jordans for a B. Find a way.
    You can't just bring in role models though. It doesn't work that way. A role model isn't around for a day or a week. It just isn't really feasable. Plus the "success" stories aren't realistic for most kids. What they need to see is someone who lived in a place like them that didn't turn to crime. It has to be CONSTANT exposure to people day to day. And also...not every community will have those pillars willing to help out. But if a community has kids interact with their teachers and coaches and even the school resource officer...it could be a huge help. That is another thing...police need to take a better standing with kids at a young age so that they can build a positive face with the community. All too often it ends up looking like the bad guys. That is another discussion though.
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Speaking of "models" there was an interesting article in the NYT Sunday Magazine section about a school that teaches "character". It emphasizes, and incorporates into lessons, character issues like curiousity, determination, creativity, etc
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    Re: The "bad teacher" bogeyman and its consequences

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    teaching is not all about test scores. No child left behind is all testing and scoring, but I have never met a teacher who thinks that's a good policy. Teachers are strictly teaching kids how to pass tests now, which isn't really the same as learning or even encouraging well rounded curriculum. Testing doesn't teach kids critical thinking or research skills, nor does it help children realize their strengths. As long as a kid does good enough on a test, that's ok and acceptable now.
    It's true, to some people it's not about test scores or performance, to others it is. How do you solve that with a public education system? A vote hardly seems appropriate, why would 49% of the people have to pay for a system that doesn't meet their needs? For example, I would think many parents involved in their childs education, actually evaluate schools based on...performance.
    Newsweek's Annual List: The Best High Schools in America - The Daily Beast

    You go for the low performing schools? Given a choice all else similar, you want the school that has half the AP pass rate of students?

    After all, children themselves are measured on what SheWolf? Performance? As a matter of fact, yes. Test grades are a big part of that (!). Are there penalties if they do bad? Yes, they may have to repeat a grade, the long-term career implications, the stigma, etc. For private schools, the additional tuition/money the parents would need to pay (if they aren't kicked out). It's good enough for private sector, it's good enough for students, but it's not good enough for teachers? What do teachers want?

    How Should Teachers Be Evaluated? Let’s Ask Teachers : NEA Today
    “If the intent is to help a teacher improve, I believe that most teachers would welcome it,” said Philip Jack, an instructor at Green River Community College in Washington. “If the intent is to ‘fire bad teachers’ or determine funding, anyone would feel angst.
    So teachers don't want to risk their job if they perform bad!? Doesn't the risk of losing a job, help some people (not everyone) to step-it-up? Why do we have private sector making less, but having more risk? Is that fair to taxpayers who are basically paying extra so that Philip Jack doesn't "feel angst"? I think most non-public workers, with their jobs ALWAYS at risk, would find that absurd. I do.

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