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Trade deficits are ALWAYS economically detrimental to the nation.

Re: Import certificates compared to tariffs.

Perhaps this will make it clearer to some (but to others nothing is ever clearer).
google “ wikipedia, balance of trade “ to read the paragraphs entitled “Trade Balances' affects upon their nation’s GDP”.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
You're not addressing his specific concern though.
1. U.S. companies pay cumulatively for R&D to develop a technology. This is possible because of IP/patent law, where they expect to have some time to get a return on the investment.
2. China steals the IP and can create a competitor now that doesn't have to carry that R&D cost and can come out with a clear market advantage via IP theft.
3. China government may also, as you correctly point out, invest directly into the company.
To suggest that because it's "competition" it's therefore Austrian/capitalist friendly is absurd. Basically what you're suggesting is that if you develop a technology, and I steal it and sell it, that's appropriate capitalistic competition. Or that government picking winners and losers is appropriate private market competition. We'll go back to inform you that fraud/theft/violence are what government should be preventing...and in the China case, it's what it's promoting. That's not to suggest that's all China does, but it does occur on a significant scale, in some important industries.

And paying CEOs less to change that is absurd. Average CEOs even reduced to zero earnings would have no significant impact on the companies ability to increase wages overall.

So it has nothing to do with trade or trade deficits. It has to do with China breaking international law and stealing stuff.

That confirms my rebuttal of the OP, doesn't it?

If China is stealing stuff, than that's a problem we need to address. It has zero to do with the trade deficit, correct? We could have a trade surplus and they could still steal IP, right?
 
So it has nothing to do with trade or trade deficits. It has to do with China breaking international law and stealing stuff.

That confirms my rebuttal of the OP, doesn't it?

If China is stealing stuff, than that's a problem we need to address. It has zero to do with the trade deficit, correct? We could have a trade surplus and they could still steal IP, right?

These kinds of comments keep on confirming I think you are the most ignorant person in the world. Because it has everything to do with trade. Trade law is about trade, part of that trade law is balance of trade and IP rights. China has never played fair.
 
Trade deficits do not matter.
 
...I think you are the most ignorant person in the world...

I'm offended by that statement. I thought I was the most ignorant person in the world! Geesh, can't I ever be best at something?
 
These kinds of comments keep on confirming I think you are the most ignorant person in the world. Because it has everything to do with trade. Trade law is about trade, part of that trade law is balance of trade and IP rights. China has never played fair.

Jesus man, this is pitiful.

Explain how a trade deficit has anything to do with China violating IP laws? Explain how China violating IP laws in any way relates to a trade deficit? If we had a trade surplus, explain how that would make a difference to China violating IP laws?

Be precise now.

This ought to be rich!
 
I'm offended by that statement. I thought I was the most ignorant person in the world! Geesh, can't I ever be best at something?

Nah, HoJ takes the cake..
 
Jesus man, this is pitiful.

Explain how a trade deficit has anything to do with China violating IP laws? Explain how China violating IP laws in any way relates to a trade deficit? If we had a trade surplus, explain how that would make a difference to China violating IP laws?

Be precise now.

This ought to be rich!

It's not my fault you aren't grasping stealing technology and China producing products from that stolen technology is a net loss in trade for the US who had exclusive rights to that produce that technology.

Simply in 2009, Piracy and counterfeiting of U.S. software and a wide range of other intellectual property in China cost U.S. businesses alone an estimated $48 billion and 2.1 million jobs in 2009 according to the International Trade Commission.
China piracy cost U.S. firms $48 billion in 2009: report | Reuters

That $48 billion in trade gone.
 
It's not my fault you aren't grasping stealing technology and China producing products from that stolen technology is a net loss in trade for the US who had exclusive rights to that produce that technology.

Simply in 2009, Piracy and counterfeiting of U.S. software and a wide range of other intellectual property in China cost U.S. businesses alone an estimated $48 billion and 2.1 million jobs in 2009 according to the International Trade Commission.
China piracy cost U.S. firms $48 billion in 2009: report | Reuters

That $48 billion in trade gone.

So the problem is stealing technology, not a trade deficit? So if we stop the stealing will the trade deficit go away? And is that why you're against IP stealing, to prevent a trade deficit? I'd think you'd just be against stealing IP regardless of a trade deficit. If we have a trade surplus and they continue to steal will you be happy? If we have a deficit and they stop stealing will you be happy?

Make up your mind!

Better yet, tell us what in Sam Hill a trade deficit has to do with IP stealing!
 
What are trade deficits?

Break it down to its basic components: goods/services traded for currency. What is goods/services and what is currency? Goods/services are finished products made with labor and raw materials. Currency comes about from pushing a key on a computer.

So a trade deficit is then trading pushing a button on a computer for someone elses hard work and countries natural resources.

Who do you think wins in this arrangement?

Of course this assumes a strong currency that people want, which is key.

But the idea that trade deficits are always bad is false. They are bad if your currency is not in demand.
 
So the problem is stealing technology, not a trade deficit? So if we stop the stealing will the trade deficit go away? And is that why you're against IP stealing, to prevent a trade deficit? I'd think you'd just be against stealing IP regardless of a trade deficit. If we have a trade surplus and they continue to steal will you be happy? If we have a deficit and they stop stealing will you be happy?

Make up your mind!

Better yet, tell us what in Sam Hill a trade deficit has to do with IP stealing!

Technology is part of trade. How do you NOT understand this? Trade deficit doesn't completely go away but it levels the playing field in the manner that Chinese companies and the Chinese Government can't steal Apple, IBM or any other companies R&D information to create their own products to sell to Americans which was R&D paid for by Americans in the first place. Americans are paying twice for the same R&D. That adds up to a bigger deficit. because US companies are losing business to Chinese companies who have stolen their tech and are now producing their products. Less products produce = lower GDP and exports.

But when you understand this it will be all clear.

I am against all IP theft. In the US alone there is a $200 billion problem.
 
What are trade deficits?

Break it down to its basic components: goods/services traded for currency. What is goods/services and what is currency? Goods/services are finished products made with labor and raw materials. Currency comes about from pushing a key on a computer.

So a trade deficit is then trading pushing a button on a computer for someone elses hard work and countries natural resources.

Who do you think wins in this arrangement?

Of course this assumes a strong currency that people want, which is key.

But the idea that trade deficits are always bad is false. They are bad if your currency is not in demand.

All true.. but the idea to ignore trade deficits because the currency is in demand is down right stupid.. Demand for currency can change on a dime..
 
We run trade deficits because we are a consumer nation that finds many nations have a comparative advantage over us in the production of those goods that outweigh the transportation costs of getting them here. China runs a surplus because their average worker makes less than 20% of what an American worker makes. We can buy their goods a hell of a lot easier than they can buy ours. Both nations benefit from the trade. Ricardo is still right. Even if the Chinese cheat the end result is greater consumer surplus for the US. What the idiotic protectionists never take into account is the consumer surplus.

The lessons of history are clear where the masses have escaped grinding poverty is where there is largely free markets and free trade. (paraphrasing Milton Friedman)
 
You need to show how this works.

We trade with China. China gets X amount of cash. We get products worth X amount of cash. Looks like a square deal to me. Why else would we trade?

So explain where the "drain" is?

I never said it was not a fair trade,

I said that one side was increasing their wealth and the other side was seeing it decrease. Economic utility was balanced but in 6 months one side will have goods worth significantly less, and the other dollars hopefully in productive investments
 
All true.. but the idea to ignore trade deficits because the currency is in demand is down right stupid.
No it is not. I never said ignore trade deficits I just broke it down to basics.
 
We run trade deficits because we are a consumer nation that finds many nations have a comparative advantage over us in the production of those goods that outweigh the transportation costs of getting them here. China runs a surplus because their average worker makes less than 20% of what an American worker makes. We can buy their goods a hell of a lot easier than they can buy ours. Both nations benefit from the trade. Ricardo is still right. Even if the Chinese cheat the end result is greater consumer surplus for the US. What the idiotic protectionists never take into account is the consumer surplus.

The lessons of history are clear where the masses have escaped grinding poverty is where there is largely free markets and free trade. (paraphrasing Milton Friedman)

While all that is true, and Americans are temporarily having a higher standard of living due to the trade deficit, the debt to China is a potential future claim against our production, and that is what many worry about.

Of course even if the trade balance reverses, it won't be disasterous for the US. It would just create more jobs in the US, and we will be able to satisfy that claim against our production with additional production created by people who are currently unemployed or underemployed.
 
Technology is part of trade. How do you NOT understand this? Trade deficit doesn't completely go away but it levels the playing field in the manner that Chinese companies and the Chinese Government can't steal Apple, IBM or any other companies R&D information to create their own products to sell to Americans which was R&D paid for by Americans in the first place. Americans are paying twice for the same R&D. That adds up to a bigger deficit. because US companies are losing business to Chinese companies who have stolen their tech and are now producing their products. Less products produce = lower GDP and exports.

But when you understand this it will be all clear.

I am against all IP theft. In the US alone there is a $200 billion problem.

1. Actually, no, technology is not necessarily "part of trade". Only trade in technological products is. The wheat we sell to China doesn't have a IP component. So your premise is wrong from the start.

2. As to the technological products we do sell to China, they reduce the trade deficit. They don't increase it. So your argument is wrong.

3. As to the trade deficit itself, it is neither good nor bad due to comparative advantage. If the deficit is related to China stealing IP (sounds like something made up by interest groups but let's assume the Sinophobes are right), then the deficit is not the problem. Stealing is. So your conclusion is wrong.

Three strikes: another Austrian is out.
 
1. Actually, no, technology is not necessarily "part of trade". Only trade in technological products is. The wheat we sell to China doesn't have a IP component. So your premise is wrong from the start.

2. As to the technological products we do sell to China, they reduce the trade deficit. They don't increase it. So your argument is wrong.

3. As to the trade deficit itself, it is neither good nor bad due to comparative advantage. If the deficit is related to China stealing IP (sounds like something made up by interest groups but let's assume the Sinophobes are right), then the deficit is not the problem. Stealing is. So your conclusion is wrong.

Three strikes: another Austrian is out.

HoJ, you've stuck out and you don't even realize it.

Technology is absolutely part of trade. Technology doesn't mean just a product but also means the ability to produce that said item (R&D). For example the US development in the assembly line and mass production. That was the major reasons why the US became a net exporter in the 1910s to the 1970s. We did it cheaper and more quickly.

Selling technological products to China is fine. It's when China takes that product reverse engineers it and then makes the same product and sells it themselves to the Chinese people thus ignoring international patent laws, it becomes a problem.

Do you even know what comparative advantage is? Definition: ability of a party to produce a particular good or service at a lower marginal and opportunity cost over another. . You don't have comparative advantage if Country A (China) steals technology from Country B (US) and uses the technology to produce the good or service because Country A cut cost from the R&D portion of cost by stealing that technology from Country B.

Sinphobes? Seriously? There are dozens of other countries are doing the same thing but they are the world second largest trading partner.. Majority of economist agree on this, from Krugman to myself.. Difference is Krugman calls for protectionist policies, I don't. But I'll point out a little facts unknown.. In 2001 ( year before China became a member of WTO), US trade balance in Technology products was a net gain of $4.45 billion. Year before that (2000) it was $5.3 billion. 9 years before (1991) that it was $38.4 billion.. last year it was loss of $90 billion. Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with Advance Technology Products

That's a swing of almost $130 billion in 10 years. That doesn't and shouldn't happen when the US spent roughly $400 billion on R&D last year and has been the leader in R&D research for decades.

Yes, its about the rules on stealing, but that stealing leads to trade imbalances as I've explained to you multiple times now. That's not a free market.
 
What are trade deficits?

Break it down to its basic components: goods/services traded for currency. What is goods/services and what is currency? Goods/services are finished products made with labor and raw materials. Currency comes about from pushing a key on a computer.

So a trade deficit is then trading pushing a button on a computer for someone elses hard work and countries natural resources.

Who do you think wins in this arrangement?

Of course this assumes a strong currency that people want, which is key.

But the idea that trade deficits are always bad is false. They are bad if your currency is not in demand.

JP Hockbaum, Nations’ annual trade deficits detrimental effects upon their nation’s numbers of jobs and median wage are immediate and reflect onto their GDP. Its detriment to GDP far exceeds the amount of the trade deficit itself. Aggregate family incomes derived from employment bear almost the entire financial burdens due to those effects.

For further reference google “ wikipedia, balance of trade “then refer to the paragraphs entitled “Trade balances’ affects upon their nation’s GDP”.

For a remedy, refer to the thread:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/econo...e-deficit-increase-gdp-and-median-wage-7.html
or
google “ wikipedia, import certificates “.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
JP Hockbaum, to the extent that the nation’s displaced labor due to a trade deficit can be employed no less effectively, or the trade deficit’s due to importing production supporting products, the trade deficit’s detriment to the GDP is mitigated. These are not the cases within the USA.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
JP Hockbaum, Nations’ annual trade deficits detrimental effects upon their nation’s numbers of jobs and median wage are immediate and reflect onto their GDP. Its detriment to GDP far exceeds the amount of the trade deficit itself. Aggregate family incomes derived from employment bear almost the entire financial burdens due to those effects.

For further reference google “ wikipedia, balance of trade “then refer to the paragraphs entitled “Trade balances’ affects upon their nation’s GDP”.

For a remedy, refer to the thread:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/econo...e-deficit-increase-gdp-and-median-wage-7.html
or
google “ wikipedia, import certificates “.

Respectfully, Supposn
It only effects jobs if there is not enough fiscal or private expenditures to offset the loss in our countries capital accounts. Are you familiar with sectoral balances?

Sectoral Balances | Heretical Druthers
 
Comparative advantage.

HoJ ...,Do you even know what comparative advantage is? Definition: ability of a party to produce a particular good or service at a lower marginal and opportunity cost over another. . ...

Comparative advantage is the attributes of the most desirable among available alternatives. Which is to most chooser’s ideal is the choosing of maximum gain AND minimum risk. The ideal seldom exists or is unavailable and/or is often less apparent to all. There may be differences of opinions with regard the weight of various factors to be considered, thus some determinations of comparative advantage may be less objective and more subjective.

We may determine all of our available alternatives are unsatisfactory. That’s the case where there’s a lack of absolute or competitive advantage but rather the choosing of the least unsatisfactory alternative.

In theory determining comparative advantage is simple; in practice it’s often more sublime.

Respectively, Supposn
 
Comparative advantage.

... Do you even know what comparative advantage is?

There are no absolute or competitive advantages to USA enterprises for outsourcing goods or service products provided at less cost and/or reducing their labor expenses if their competitors act in similar fashions; but proponents of free enterprise agree within a nation these fluid market determinations are in the aggregate best interests the nation's enterprises and society. Regarding a national policy of pure free global trade there is less of concurrence among these proponents.

If a nation’s global trade balance is a surplus, that balance contributes to their nation’s numbers of jobs and median wage which are reflected by a GDP that’s greater than otherwise.
[Google “wikipedia balance of trade”, refer to paragraphs entitled “Trade balances’ affects upon GDPs”].

When a nation suffers annual trade deficits, to the extent that nation no less effectively utilizes and compensate labor (despite the trade deficit’s immediate detriment to the nation’s numbers of jobs and median wage’s purchasing powers), the detriment to the GDP is mitigated.

To the extent that importing production supporting products contribute to a nations’ net balance of trade, it also affect their GDPs.
USA’s overwhelming portion of imported goods are for consumers rather than for production support Our formal and informal class rooms and on job trainings have not produced knowledge, skills and craftsmanship that significantly reduces or overcomes our trade deficit’s detriment to numbers of jobs; unfortunately we have not made such achievements to significantly mitigate our trade deficit’s detriments to our GDP.

When the U.S. Congress voted to enact more altruistic foreign relationships and trade policies, the Marshall Plan was funded from our federal budget and paid for by ALL USA taxpayers. Our trade deficit’s economic net burden to our GDP is almost entirely carried by only salary and wage earners.

I’m among the proponents of the specific Import Certificate’s, (IC’s) trade policy that would eliminate our global trade deficit of assessed goods values. I’m a proponent of IC’s because it is to our COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE.

Funding of the proposal’s entire direct net costs would be paid by increased prices to USA’s final purchasers and users of such imported goods. These costs are not a net source of federal revenue but an effective indirect subsidy of USA’s exported goods.
[Google “wikipedia import certificate”].

Respectfully, Supposn
 
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