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All should have to pay federal income tax

Will do nothing if spending is not first brought under control and stopped

You are most likely correct about that, but some of our best economic expansions have been simultanious to significant government spending increases and significant deficit increases.
 
It just sounds "good" to conservatives to claim that higher taxes always lead to a decline in economic growth. It sounds logical. Unfortunately, for conservatives, it can't be proven historically. History actually tends to point to the opposite conclusion, but in all fairness, there are so many factors involved with the economy that economic history is of little relevance. Conservatives like to point to the Laffer Curve as their only evidence, even assuming that the Laffer Curve is of merit, it is obvious that we are on the left side of the curve and not the right side (which indicates that based on our current taxation, further decreases in taxes may not improve our economy and will not increase revenue).

Higher taxes costing economic growth is just an assumption that they like to make, and they pretend that it is a given fact, with absolutely no supporting evidence.

That is basically true. If we were on the right side of the Laffer curve, we wouldn't be making new taxes to pay for things, we'd be cutting them.
Imagine how awesome it would be if we could pay for new expenditures with tax cuts!
 
:roll: fine. 4.5 OUT of the 18-19% however you want to say it, you're playing semantics. we are both discussing the same thing: the drop in 2009 of revenue as a portion of GDP to 15%. It is the largest outlier in the past 60 years (there is no comparable outlier above the 18-19% mark), solidly helping to demonstrate that even the most extreme circumstances prove the exceptions that prove the rule.

the claim that you can somehow magically get 25% of GDP (what our federal government is currently spending) through raising tax rates REMAINS false.



if you will note, i also broke it further down specifically into the share that comes from the income tax.

I was playing semantics, you're right, sorry. However, your original phrasing was something 'it's ONLY 4.5% off!', but that made it sound insignificant - 4.5 out of 19% isn't insignificant.

I actually wasn't talking about income, corporate, etc. taxes. I mean, his revenue can't stand for all income tax rates. Through logic, it can be deduced that with 0% tax rates, we have 0 revenue. Unless it is asymptotic at 0%, there must be some point where revenue as a % of GDP will start to decrease.
 
That is basically true. If we were on the right side of the Laffer curve, we wouldn't be making new taxes to pay for things, we'd be cutting them.
Imagine how awesome it would be if we could pay for new expenditures with tax cuts!

Yes, if we had a negative 100% tax rate (meaning that the government would give us a dollar for every dollar that we made) then the government would have so much tax revenue that it could afford to pay for every family to have it's on personal police officer, and every personal police officer would have their own personal police officer.

Edit
Err, forget that comment. I was temporarally on the same drug that the radical right takes and simultaniously on the same drug that radical liberals take. Apparently the two don't mix well.
 
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I'll just leave this here.
rcmtdh.gif
 
I'll just leave this here.
rcmtdh.gif

That's about the worst best-fit-line I've ever seen.
Norway was taken to be 283928398 times more important than every other country.

In any case, the laffer curve is mainly applied to income tax rates in American politics.
Also, the corp. tax rate varies between 15-35% here, it's not a steady 35%.
 
Since it has been proven, over and over again, that reducing taxes reduces revenue, I really don't see why increasing taxes wouldn't increase revenue. It just depends if we are on the left or the right side of the Laffer Curve, and I believe that historical evidence indicates that we are firmly on the left side.

Not that I want taxes to go up, like most everyone, I would prefer government spending to be reduced.

there are lots of people who disagree with you-those who understand that spending more while demanding the rich pay more taxes win elections in certain areas for dems

cutting spending is a kiss of death for democratic politicians in many cases
 
It just sounds "good" to conservatives to claim that higher taxes always lead to a decline in economic growth. It sounds logical. Unfortunately, for conservatives, it can't be proven historically. History actually tends to point to the opposite conclusion, but in all fairness, there are so many factors involved with the economy that economic history is of little relevance. Conservatives like to point to the Laffer Curve as their only evidence, even assuming that the Laffer Curve is of merit, it is obvious that we are on the left side of the curve and not the right side (which indicates that based on our current taxation, further decreases in taxes may not improve our economy and will not increase revenue).

Higher taxes costing economic growth is just an assumption that they like to make, and they pretend that it is a given fact, with absolutely no supporting evidence.

just as dems pretend that jacking up taxes on the wealthy will result in more revenue (how did the clinton "luxury tax") work out

and if we continue to only want to tax the rich, the majority will never want to stop the spending
 
That's about the worst best-fit-line I've ever seen.
Norway was taken to be 283928398 times more important than every other country.

In any case, the laffer curve is mainly applied to income tax rates in American politics.
Also, the corp. tax rate varies between 15-35% here, it's not a steady 35%.

What is the evidence supporting the existence of a laffer curve like you see in economics textbooks.
 
just as dems pretend that jacking up taxes on the wealthy will result in more revenue (how did the clinton "luxury tax") work out

and if we continue to only want to tax the rich, the majority will never want to stop the spending

What an original thought. Did you think of this theory yourself or did you read it somewhere else?
 
You are most likely correct about that, but some of our best economic expansions have been simultanious to significant government spending increases and significant deficit increases.

It has done little for the economy all it did was grow government and help unions
 
What an original thought. Did you think of this theory yourself or did you read it somewhere else?

I am a creative thinker-something a union member would have a hard time fathoming
 
I am a creative thinker-something a union member would have a hard time fathoming

Well you certainly am a continual repeater of the same line over and over and over again - I will give you that.
 
Well you certainly am a continual repeater of the same line over and over and over again - I will give you that.

when in Rome
 
I was playing semantics, you're right, sorry. However, your original phrasing was something 'it's ONLY 4.5% off!', but that made it sound insignificant - 4.5 out of 19% isn't insignificant.

:) well let's put it both ways; the worst crash in 80 years was able to move revenue collection as a percent of GDP 25% off of it's historical mean, or 4.5 points of GDP.

though it occurs to me that the massive increase in transfer payments during those years also contributed to that decrease of revenue. if you inveset 100 Bn into a new company, that money is going to be spent in all manner of ways that are taxed. If you invest 100 Bn in bonds which is then used to inject liquidity into the financial system, the effective tax revenue generated is zero.

I actually wasn't talking about income, corporate, etc. taxes. I mean, his revenue can't stand for all income tax rates

no, only historical ones. if we were to decrease tax rates to where we aimed at less than than 18% of GDP, then we would probably see shift in that direction. but as of yet we have not done that.

which is why I would say we need to aim our collection efforts at about 19% of GDP, and our spending at 15%. the remaining (average) 3-4% of GDP collected can go to pay down debt, then to build an emergency fund (with some tough dang glass; supermajority of Congress and a Presidential signature at least).... and then we can reduce the tax burden further.

Through logic, it can be deduced that with 0% tax rates, we have 0 revenue. Unless it is asymptotic at 0%, there must be some point where revenue as a % of GDP will start to decrease.

that's the basic theory behind the Laffer Curve. at 0% tax rates you collect $0. at 100% tax rates, you also collect $0.
 
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:) well let's put it both ways; the worst crash in 80 years was able to move revenue collection as a percent of GDP 25% off of it's historical mean, or 4.5 points of GDP.

though it occurs to me that the massive increase in transfer payments during those years also contributed to that decrease of revenue. if you inveset 100 Bn into a new company, that money is going to be spent in all manner of ways that are taxed. If you invest 100 Bn in bonds which is then used to inject liquidity into the financial system, the effective tax revenue generated is zero.



no, only historical ones. if we were to decrease tax rates to where we aimed at less than than 18% of GDP, then we would probably see shift in that direction. but as of yet we have not done that.

which is why I would say we need to aim our collection efforts at about 19% of GDP, and our spending at 15%. the remaining (average) 3-4% of GDP collected can go to pay down debt, then to build an emergency fund (with some tough dang glass; supermajority of Congress and a Presidential signature at least).... and then we can reduce the tax burden further.



that's the basic theory behind the Laffer Curve. at 0% tax rates you collect $0. at 100% tax rates, you also collect $0.

Aiming to have govt. spending at a particular percentage of GDP would be awkward, since govt. spending makes up part of that GDP.
 
Aiming to have govt. spending at a particular percentage of GDP would be awkward, since govt. spending makes up part of that GDP.

:shrug: i'm not sure how that would make it that difficult. seems a basic matter of a sliding scale.
 
from cpwill

the worst crash in 80 years was able to move revenue collection as a percent of GDP 25% off of it's historical mean, or 4.5 points of GDP.

The theory you are pushing only uses data for a small part of American history. The use of the term 'historical mean' is hardly applicable.
 
The theory you are pushing only uses data for a small part of American history. The use of the term 'historical mean' is hardly applicable.

from 1950 to 2009 is a pretty good time period to get an accurate picture of what a modern economy will be putting out; especially given the wild variation in top marginal tax rates during that time period.
 
from 1950 to 2009 is a pretty good time period to get an accurate picture of what a modern economy will be putting out; especially given the wild variation in top marginal tax rates during that time period.

And why does this theory only begin in 1950?
 
And why does this theory only begin in 1950?

It's the start of when the US started transitioning from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy.
 
And why does this theory only begin in 1950?

:shrug: I would imagine that the basic theory (that past a certain point the incentives are for people to avoid taxes rather than maximize return) is pretty constant. but measuring what we call "the post-war era" is a wise move if you want to get a picture of what you can expect from today's economy.


i know you don't like it, but just because we don't like something doesn't mean that we should ignore it; especially when we are trying to save ourselves from a looming mountain of debt.
 
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