middleagedgamer

I've known all my life that the United States, in general, is against socialism.

However, we mostly did not oppose socialism so strongly until the Cold War, when everything that the Soviet Union did was evil, and if you so much as had a neutral position, much less a sympathetic one, against any kind of Soviet policy, you were instantly labeled a (potential) traitor, per the terms of McCarthysm and the Red Scare.

However, both McCarthysm and the Red Scare are frowned upon by us, now that we have the luxury of hindsight. We were largely overreacting to the possibility of letting the USSR even a toe inside our doors.

However, the biggest reason that we hated the Soviets during the cold war was not because of our conflicting opinions about economics; it was about our conflicting opinions about human rights. Stalin would instantly kill any Russian he even thought, much less coud prove, was not totally supportive of his regime. No trials, no appeals. The government was largely oligarchic in terms of political influence, and they used terrorism to keep most of the citizens in line.

This totally conflicted with everything that the United States held dear: That all men are created equal, that they are bestowed upon them by their creator with certain, unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Stalin's regime violated at least those first two, and therefore, they were natural enemies of the United States.

The Red Scare and McCarthysm caused one thing to lead to another, and before we knew it, anything that could even be remotely tied to the Soviet Union was the belief of a US traitor, and socialism was one of them, but that doesn't mean that it is inherently bad.

I will now go down the list of the most common criticisms of socialism, and provide explanations against them, in the favor of socialism.

Effect on individual freedom.
Who said we have to be like Stalin? People can have recourses with which to address their grievences. In fact, current capitalism only allows for the right to petition the government. Private organizations, such as employers, are not required to respect any first-amendment rights except religion, including the right to free speech, the right to peacefully assemble ("You want to rally in front of City Hall? Fine, but do it off shift, or you're fired for no-showing"), and they might even fire you because you peititioned the manager for a wage increase. You have almost no right to privacy that your employer cannot make you sign away, and you have to sign it because you lack the bargaining power to refuse it.

With socialism, you can have your own company; you can have profits, but you'll have a lot more rights that you must respect if you're going to do it.

Distorted or absent price signals

So, basically, companies can no longer set their prices as they like, meaning no more fine print, no more retarded rebate schemes, no more ommitting the S&H from infomercial pricing? Oh my god, the world's gonna collapse in on itself!

Reduced incentives for workers

Not necessarily. If workers received a commision bonus, instead of an hourly wage, then they would have an incentive to work as hard and as much as they could. This is commonly referred to as "independent contractors," and some people don't like that because they aren't entitled to various things, such as workers' compensation and civil rights protection. See my section on individual freedom for my answer to that.

Also, they can have a fixed, familiar procedure for getting promoted, based solely on job performance, and nothing else. Computers, not people, decide who has performed the most adequetly. Computers, not people, conduct the interviews and oversee the training regiment. This seems scarey at first, but it will eliminate people "politicing" their way to the top, so it just might be worth it. You can become a CEO, or a Congressman, as long as you don't sleep and politic your way to the top. You'll have to earn your success, rather than have it handed to you on a silver platter. Success will be based on what you know, rather than who you know.

Reduced prosperity and slow technological advancement

Who says? People can have their small businesses, and even publicly-traded corporations. People can have their patented inventions; socialism merely regulates how they can be abused (not used, but abused). If someone invents a pill that can cure cancer, should they be allowed to charge $50,000,000 for it?

"If you don't give me that pill, my daughter will die!"
"Give me fifty million dollars and I'll give you the pill."

That sounds like a ransom to me. "If you want your daughter to live, I want fifty million dollars, or she'll die! MWAH HA HA HA HAAAAAA!"

These are the most common issues I've found against socialism. Do any of your capitalist extremists still have anything to say?

RDS

Mention socialist and all hell breaks loose in USA but Obama been courting the communists.

Matt633

Why pursue socialism is to me a better question.

Why, when as a capitalist nation you are the most prosperous, most powerful, must freedom loving nation in the history of the world?

Free markets do produce a fair share of problems. But the incentive to work hard, the freedom to do with your hard earned money what you please,- these are benefits that we should not even consider sacrificing on the altar of make everybody equal and nobody goes hungry platform.

Let the man who works extremely hard get extremely rich. Let him know that his prodigy will be rich for generations, that his good name will endure for decades after his death.

Then let others see it and be inspired to greatness as well. The more great people we have the greater our nation and the better our society.

This is what made one of the youngest nations on earth the wealthiest and most powerful and arguably most benevolent nation in the history of the world.

Why change? Just keep addressing the problems as they come up. Deal with the growing pains of capitalism. That's the answer to me.

Arch Enemy

Socialism and Capitalism all lead to the same thing; All the power consolidated in a very few. It doesn't matter what pill you swallow it all ends with a Plutocracy.

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"I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

DarkWizard12

Because it's proven not to work.

No it doesn't. the power of capitalism is equally split between the supply, and the demand. Capitalism, when allowed, will bring markets into equilibrium because capitalism functions on human nature.

Where the problem with capitalism arises is when there is a high demand of its abolition, which usually increases and decreases with the business cycle because, you know, power hungry individuals like to use mere slumps for their own political gain which, in turn, induces plutocracy within the government and, as generations go by without checks, finally destroys capitalism and replaces it with plutocracy.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OKGrannie Even pro-choicers will say the fetus is alive.

PeteEU

As has capitalism. It is capitalism that has brought the US economy to its knees after all.

Plus under the American definition most of Europe is socialist, and their economies are doing far better than the US.

Just because certain individuals took the theory of socialism and twisted it into a dictatorship does not mean it is good or bad. There has been plenty of "capitalistic" dictatorships throughout history. The whole British Empire was basically a capitalistic dictatorship in many ways. Funny how that did not tarnish capitalism in the same way....

In a right wingers theory book sure, but in reality no. The free markets requires full knowledge from both sides and that is impossible. One side will always have more information than the other and will exploit this knowledge to gain the upper hand and this means that an equilibrium is impossible. It is human nature to exploit others if allowed and unregulated capitalism encourages this greed aspect.

At least you can admit it.

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PeteEU

RDS

Didn't you guys watch how the crony dectructive capitalism brought abt a debt of $12T to USA and Obama had to bow so low in Japan and carry the chinese president's balls?

rathi

Command economies only work when you have a fairly simple goal to focus your nation upon. For example, total war works very well with a command economy, as its relatively easy to optimize for maximum production of munitions. Running a typical peace time economy requires you become some kind of oracle who can predict demand for consumer. Supply and demand may be a somewhat sloppy system for producing the correct number of goods, but it is far more accurate than trying to calculate it manually.

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He'd be right at home on some ancient battlefield, swinging an axe into somebody's face.

DarkWizard12

Petey boy, you have no idea what you are talking about again, do you? Or is our economy really so easy to understand that a mere spaniard can figure it all out.

Oh and, Knowledge is also a market. It has a supply and demand so, your little model doesn't work outside of your little european playbook, not in the real world.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OKGrannie Even pro-choicers will say the fetus is alive.

Khayembii Communique

Socialism is awesome.

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"I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."