Helte/2Skelter

It is a bit ironic that you chose a George Orwell quote in your signature on this thread.

On the contrary, I would say that socialism liberates the individual from the economic choices of other individuals, good or bad. Are we not a collective in taking the rise and fall of the market? The problem with worker owned businesses in a capitalist climate is that they have a lower upper-bound in their potential competitiveness when compared to more authoritarian individual or small group-owned businesses. In a way, it is like comparing the worth of $20 over a $20 gift card, but perhaps a more significant contrast.

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presluc

Economic growth?
How many trillion dollars is America in debt, America owes China money.

Less manufacturing means less paychecks?
Well less people working means less paychecks yes.

Wages have steadily risen?
What and the cost of living stood still??

Americans have to buy cheaper they don't have the money to buy expensive nor good products.
Americans have less money in their pockets because there are less work and the work that is available is a low paying jobs.

You forget a majority of Americans are blue collar and unskilled and working poor.
The middle class is all but gone it's already been divided upper middle class and lower middle class,
The upper middle class bearly hanging on
The lower middle class is already on the endangered list .

You take away the unskilled, blue collar workers, working poor taxes, and I'm sure the rich is not going to give up their tax cuts or grants so who does that leave to foot the tax revenue bill?
The upper middle class soon to join the lower middle class.

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Tiki bar regular.
My code, never take anything for granted always expect the unexpexted.
Never take anything you don't need ,never want anything you can't have

Jackboot

I just have to laugh when I hear liberals talking about how wages are not growing with inflation, just who has been responsible for inflation again?

Why does the same car that cost 2000 dollars a few short decades ago, now cost 25,000 dollars, riddle me this, batman?

DrunkenAsparagus

I'm aware that he was a socialist. We both hate totalitarianism.

It doesn't liberate anyone. There's no situation in where you can have full freedom. However, big government and statism are no better, as your decisions are directly tied to the collective.

We are millions of individuals, all with differant needs and wants.

They cannot compete as well since the market, without government favortism, because it weeds out the less efficent companies. The companies with managers aren't more authoritarian than other businesses, because the relationship is 100% voluntary. Both parties must consent. In a worker-owned enterprise, one has to go with the majority rule. Besides, the owner put all of that risk into forming the business. Why shouldn't he have his say? The only way to end "authoritarianism in the workplace" is for everyone to be self employed.

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"Doubleplusungood"

George Orwell

presluc

Laugh at this rightwinger in the year 2000 America had a surplus {you might have to google that to find out what it means} in 2008 when the "great Republican party" left office America had somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 trillion dollars in debt.

As far as your riddle Robin

Well two factors come to mind.

One Who pays for the fuel to outsource parts to third world countries to get there and who pays for it to get back?

2 How many blue collar workers, or unskilled workers or poor workers are buying new cars these days.
The main key to marketing is to target whose going to buy.
Whose buying new cars rich, upper middle class charge more or maybe it's because of all that expensive labor in third world countries? lol,lol

__________________
Tiki bar regular.
My code, never take anything for granted always expect the unexpexted.
Never take anything you don't need ,never want anything you can't have

DrunkenAsparagus

Our government irressponsibly throwing around money doesn't change the fact that the economy has significantly grown in the past few decades

There are not jobs out there besides manufacturing?
That's inflation, wages have risen with most of them. Before you bring up things like healthcare, housing, and food, how are their prices related to outsourcing?

They have more money in their pockets to buy those things.

So the only good jobs are manufacturing, low paying, or require college?

There are plenty of decent paying jobs to fill them up in the service sector

The rich have simply risen faster than the poor, this doesn't mean that the bottome half is falling

Because they're moving up
The rich already pay the most in taxes. See above for rest

__________________
"Doubleplusungood"

George Orwell

AlbqOwl

I haven't read all the thread yet, but will try to do so as I have time. I do want to follow the thread.

Realizing I may be paralleling others here, initially my quarrel with socialism:

1) It depends too heavily on redistribution of wealth and, as Maggie Thatcher once said, it cannot be sustained as sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

2) There is entirely too much temptation for self-serving corruption whenever government is allowed to take money from some in order to give it to others.

3) The great American experiment incorporated into the Constitution put the power to determine our destiny into the hands of the people; i.e. for the first time in civilized history, it gave the people full power to choose whether they would succeed or fail and the degree of that success or failure. Socialism takes much or all of that freedom away.

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"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

Jackboot

So before Bush took office, cars still remained at 2000 dollars a piece, is this your absurd suggestion. I am not a Bush apologist, nor am I a republican, you are obviously not intelligent enough to respond to my post, so I will ignore your partisan nonsense!

presluc

As for your last paragraph.

I don't mind the owner of a company "have his say" if he pays his way.

However when taxpayer dollars pays for his problems? WELL???

The taxpayers should have a right to say something, they didn't even get a lousy coupon.
Even after the bailouts in most cases employees were let go.
There was no shortage of outsourceing.

So basicly taxpayers are paying a companies bills the owner "has his say" to outsource jobs taxpayers need overseas??
Sounds a bit one sided to me.

__________________
Tiki bar regular.
My code, never take anything for granted always expect the unexpexted.
Never take anything you don't need ,never want anything you can't have

DrunkenAsparagus

Going back to the bailouts. Which isn't part of the shade of capitalism that is being disscussed

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"Doubleplusungood"

George Orwell