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Thread: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    No. Science (AKA free-market capitalism) is based on pure reason.
    Like I said, I don't accept reason as an absolute. I view it more as a tool that allows us to answer those questions that are capable of being answered. All empirical science is based on human perception, and human perception is limited by man's senses and the observable universe. So, in that sense, scientists are taking it on faith that their view of the universe reflects its true state. And economics is a long way from being a pure science, because humans don't always perform as expected, nor, perhaps, should they:

    [W]e find that the more a cultivated reason applies itself with deliberate purpose to the enjoyment of life and happiness, so much the more does the man fail of true satisfaction. And from this circumstance there arises in many, if they are candid enough to confess it, a certain degree of misology, that is, hatred of reason, especially in the case of those who are most experienced in the use of it, because after calculating all the advantages they derive, I do not say from the invention of all the arts of common luxury, but even from the sciences (which seem to them to be after all only a luxury of the understanding), they find that they have, in fact, only brought more trouble on their shoulders. rather than gained in happiness; and they end by envying, rather than despising, the more common stamp of men who keep closer to the guidance of mere instinct and do not allow their reason much influence on their conduct.

    From Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic of Morals, by Immanuel Kant

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    The only rational way to judge social rulesets is by the principle of evolutionary competitive advantage - a ruleset that leads to the greatest long-term economic growth (that is the greatest fulfillment of materialistic wants) is the most desirable. Those economic laws are not an arbitrary construct - like fundamental laws of physics, they exist whether you believe in them or not.
    I get nervous whenever someone uses a word like "only," because that implies there is absolutely NO other rational means to judge social rulesets. I'm all for maximizing happiness and living the good life, just as long I do it morally and ethically. It's also "good" if I aid my community not simply as a byproduct of supplying a good or service, but also because I maintain a sense of altruism. Anyway, maybe the most desirable existence is not in amassing large quantities of material goods, but in the simple life of living with a few basics. Personally, I think I would do just fine living in a tropical paradise loaded with mangoes, pineapples, coconuts, and throngs of gorgeous, exotic women adorned with nothing but fragrant tuberose leis.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Immanuel Kant is the second most irrational and destructive "intellectual" in the history of Western Civilization, the worst of course being Karl Marx.

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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    You likely want to blame liberals and minorities for the oversight failure so you latch on the CRA myth.
    Not minorities, just liberals. And the problem was not as simple as some folks (mostly liberals) thought it was:

    "From the current handwringing, you’d think that the banks came up with the idea of looser underwriting standards on their own, with regulators just asleep on the job. In fact, it was the regulators who relaxed these standards--at the behest of community groups and "progressive" political forces.… For years, rising house prices hid the default problems since quick refinances were possible. But now that house prices have stopped rising, we can clearly see the damage done by relaxed loan standards."

    The point here is not that low-income borrowers received mortgage loans that they could not afford. That is probably true to some extent but cannot account for the large number of sub-prime and Alt-A loans that currently pollute the banking system. It was the spreading of these looser standards to the prime loan market that vastly increased the availability of credit for mortgages, the speculation in housing, and ultimately the bubble in housing prices.

    The American Spectator : The True Origins of This Financial Crisis
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    Immanuel Kant is the second most irrational and destructive "intellectual" in the history of Western Civilization, the worst of course being Karl Marx.
    No, the worst is Ayn Rand. At least Marx had a conscience.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    You don't need a "con-science" when you have a rational moral philosophy - the latter is far, far more effective.

    And have you ever read a real biography of Karl Marx (i.e. that wasn't published by communists)?
    Last edited by Alex Libman; 09-08-09 at 12:12 AM.

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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    And have you ever read a real biography of Karl Marx (i.e. that wasn't published by communists)?
    Nope. My exposure to Marx came from an undergraduate survey class in college. I studied mostly political philosophy from the Early Enlightenment to the Late Renaissance. I had some basic exposure to political economy--Adam Smith, J.S. Mill, Marx, Hegel, Ricardo, Malthus--the usual suspects. Honestly, I think I've learned more about this stuff since I started debating several years ago on political message boards like this one. Normally, the bigger the asshole (opponent), the more I learn, because the harder I work. That's an a priori truth.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    My job is not to educate you. You could have googled "6% Republican Scientist" and had your answer before in 5 seconds.

    Here you go...now run along.

    Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The evidence is overwhelming the CRA story that wingers tell is a load of crap.
    You made this claim:

    The CRA/Housing crisis myth is an urban legend. I'm very familiar with it. Is started from a factless IBD editorial. Additionally I've posted in the past Congressional testimony from Bush Administration officials that told Congress point blank the CRA had nothing to do with. Furthermore I've posted multiple statements by experts stating the CRA was a non issue.
    And to support it, you provided a link to wikipedia that notes that there is an ongoing controversy as to whether the CRA had a significant effect or merely a minor effect. Do you see why it's hard to believe what you're saying here?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Comptroller Dugan Says CRA not Responsible For Subprime Lending Abuses

    FDIC: Speeches & Testimony - 12/17/2008

    As I understand it, CRA loans in aggregate outstanding never came close to anywhere near 10% of the total housing market loans outstanding. Blaming the CRA is like blaming a $5k over budget expense account for why Enron went bust.
    From one of the CRA's defenders:

    In the February 2008 House hearing, law professor Michael S. Barr, a Treasury Department official under President Clinton,[64][109] stated that a Federal Reserve survey showed that affected institutions considered CRA loans profitable and not overly risky. He noted that approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA regulated bank subsidiaries and affiliates.
    That would seem to indicate that around 25% of subprime loans were made by fully CRA-regulated banks while another 25% were from partially CRA-regulated banks. We can argue over the impact of those loans, but it seems clear that the ratio doesn't resemble $5k:Enron.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That would seem to indicate that around 25% of subprime loans were made by fully CRA-regulated banks while another 25% were from partially CRA-regulated banks.
    But the loans themselves were not CRA. Furthermore, remember that the subprime itself was never covered under regulation, meaning any bank could sell them.

    We can argue over the impact of those loans, but it seems clear that the ratio doesn't resemble $5k:Enron.
    Only if we ignore aggregate totals.

    LS-564: TREASURY DEPARTMENT RELEASES CRA STUDY

    The study focused on lending trends in 305 U.S. cities between 1993 and 1998. Highlights include:

    * $467 billion in mortgage credit flowed from CRA-covered lenders to CRA-eligible borrowers.
    That's $77.83 billion in CRA loans per year.

    There are $11.25 trillion home mortgages as of 2008 outstanding.

    Banking, Mortgages & Credit Statistics

    There is no way that $77.83 billion in annual CRA loans could even remotely cause the mess we see today when the aggregate total of home mortgages vastly surpasses even aggregate CRA loans.

    Most Subprime Lenders Weren’t Covered by CRA | The Big Picture

    Even in recent years, there's no way CRA caused this mess. Sheer materiality levels alone eliminate it even on the premise of 100% defaults which we know isn't true.

    And we're not even accounting for the potential $1.6 trillion AIG derivative exposure.

    CRA is nothing more than a scapegoat.

    Point is, the real frackups were with the big banks not subject to CRA issuing often double to triple the amount of CRAs, poor banking practices, AIG's London Office, and Fannie/Freddie. In 2005, non-CRA subprime lending was almost more then aggregate CRA prior to 1998.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    What I'm referring to is the idea that, in order to maintain full employment, government should maintain high levels of aggregate demand by making up for shortfalls in private-sector spending. It's the old supply-side, demand-side debate in which some people (like me) believe that demand should come from savings, not borrowing. Borrowing is fine if it's used for a productive purpose that provides a return greater than the cost--and if you can afford it. I just don't happen to think that Cash for Clunkers and programs designed to keep buyers in their homes at bubble prices qualify as productive uses of taxpayer funds.
    The Keynesians however are right about corporate-capitalism. That doesn't mean the likes of Krugman and neo-keynesians have great analysis of economic reality, you'd have to go to Keynes himself and the post-keynesians for a much firmer base, just they are correct that the state intervention that caused corporate-capitalism needs more and more to maintain it. If you took the gov't support that is generally called keynesianism away tomorrow and left corporate-capitalism otherwise intact it would not bounce back stronger than ever, it would likely suffer extreme problems and likely collapse.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 09-08-09 at 03:27 AM.
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    Re: Right Wing Ideology Fails in Economics As Well

    Quote Originally Posted by dragondad View Post
    You know just from a greed standpoint, why would anybody listen to right wing nonsense?

    They've touted Milton Friedman and the "Chicago School" for thirty years and it's been a miserable failure.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/ma...ewanted=1&_r=1
    I could be considered "rightwing" and I have little time for Friedman or the "Chicago school", we don't all share identical economic beliefs.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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