Solidus

Care to cite a specific instance of these "loopholes" that allow for "zero taxes" as you claimed previously?

To borrow from popular culture ... EPIC FAIL!

From your source ExxonMobile did generate revenue of M$254,926. After costs (workers salaries, etc.) corporate income was M$ 42,398, on which they paid M$ 19,828; or roughly 46% in taxes (the numbers from 2007 produce 42% in income tax so this is clearly not the "statute rate"). Leaving net income of M$ 22,570; not your $194 billion fantasy. Your calculator is probably fine, but garbage in = garbage out.

"Socialism" didn't cause our mess, nor is it the solution. Inherent political "corruption" (legal behavior not aligned with "the public good") is the prime cause ... for which the solution eludes me.

J

bobnelsonfr

When you talk about your own taxes, do you include those ten percent (or whatever) that you pay every day in sales taxes? Do you add that to your income tax rate? Apples and oranges make a fine salad...
Do you add the miscellaneous vehicle taxes, property taxes, water taxes, and all the others... ??
That's what you're doing with ExxonMobile. For pity's sake! They pay sales taxes because they're buying something... just like you... WHY SHOULDN'T THEY PAY JUST LIKE YOU?? . .

Why does Joe Sixpack, killing himself with long hours for crappy pay, plead the cause of the people who are screwing him? ExxonMobile's income is roughly ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS for every man, woman and child in the United States. And this company weeps because of taxes?? Truly no shame! . .

__________________
Bob Nelson
Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich - Napoléon

shiznit770

So when I calculate my income tax, should I not be counting the "costs" that go into providing for that income. Food, Shelter, Transportation. If that is how you think it should be calculated I'd be interested in seeing how you might find someone's tax rate who must go in debt to provide their necessities.

Ethereal

How simplistic can one get? Do actually believe any of this nonsense? Do even know what you're saying? Do you really think that people's opposition to socialism and welfare programs are merely an aversion to helping others? Do you know ANYTHING about economics?

Where do you suppose this money will come from? Do you care at all about the massive debt and corruption which is inherent in increasing the size and influence of the Federal government? THINK! I know you have a brain, perhaps instead of basing every single one of your positions in emotion you should inject some of them with logic. We ALL want to help people, free-market economics and compassion for the unfortunate are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

Command style economics is a failure. It never ceases to amaze me that anyone could subscribe to this junk science. It doesn't work! It has never worked! Its failures are strewn throughout history, whereas the sucesses of market liberalization are too numerous to count. Why are India, Brazil, and China experiencing unprecedented growth after liberlizing their markets? You would chalk it up to coincidene or merely ignore it I suppose. The facts speak for themselves, socialism DOES NOT WORK. Free market economics are not to blame for the problems we face in America, the current financial crisis can be traced back to one source - government intervention in the free market.

I want to know, 1069, I want to know what specific aspects of socialism you find so appealing and what proofs you have of its success. All I've ever heard from you is emotionally-based rhetoric without an ounce of substance to back any of it up. What is your position based upon, if anything?

Solidus

No I do not. Nor did I do that with ExxonMobil. I properly applied the income taxes paid against ExxonMobil's income. Your source identifies sales taxes and "other" taxes seperately (as they are independent of ExxonMobil's income). Please go back and carefully read and comprehend your source before continuing.

They DO pay "just like me", as both I and your own source have made clear. In fact they pay MUCH MORE than I, as your source demonstrates.

I plead the case of the truth. ExxonMobil's REVENUE may be close to your emotional claim (btw, care to provide a source for that?), that is NOT the same as it's INCOME. If you cannot get simple facts correct you have no business arguing larger principles.

If it costs you $1 to grow an apple and you sell it for $1.10 (10% mark-up). Do you think you should pay taxes on the $1.10 REVENUE or the $0.10 INCOME? Assuming a 20% tax rate we find ...

A) $1.10 REVENUE with 20% taxes = $0.22 in taxes, for a net loss of $0.12 per apple.
B) $0.10 INCOME with 20% taxes = $0.02 in taxes, for a net profit of $0.08 per apple.

Which scenario do you think would produce more apples for the general public? Which scenario do you think would encourage lower priced apples for the general public (hint: what 'mark-up' is needed to turn an after-tax profit in case A)?

For you and I, our income is equivalent to our revenue. Barring tax "loopholes" like our 401k, health benefits, etc. You do not "sell" your food, shelter, or transportation to your employer. You sell your time, which costs you nothing to create. You could "sell" your time to yourself and generate your own food, shelter, and transportation but then you'd be Amish and probably not posting to an online forum.

J

bobnelsonfr

This is a straw man. Obviously the rate must be adjusted to the base. ExxonMobile is at less than 8% of revenue...
To answer your question straight up: I very much prefer taxing revenue. There are too many methods for camouflaging income. .

Joe Sixpack's withholding is on what he's paid. It doesn't take account of anything he's doing elsewhere. (Yes I know, it, isn't quite that simple, but that's the principle and IMHO it should be the rule.) The same should apply to to corporate taxes.

__________________
Bob Nelson
Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich - Napoléon

bobnelsonfr

This kind of remark kills me, because the person is accusing another of ignorance, while demonstrating their own!

Universal health care: I not only believe it, I LIVE it. De Gaulle (who was neither left nor right, just pragmatic) installed the French system which is independant of the government. (An association of labor, management and government.)

Doctors are self-employed, going where they wish, and choosing whatever specialties they wish. Beneficiaries may choose whomever they wish as their generalist, and he is then the portal to specialists as needed. There are of course control commissions to examine problems of whatever nature.

The French live longer than Americans... The French live longer than anyone, for that matter... Infant mortality is lower than in the States. Take any metric, French health care is very good -- statistically far better than American.

The French pay about HALF what Americans pay....

This is really a no-brainer, if one takes more than ten seconds to actually THINK about it.

Americans pay to corporations whose mission is to maximize profits for shareholders. Paying benefits to customers reduces shareholder profit, so paying benefits is to be avoided by all means.

The French pay into a system whose mission is to provide the best possible health care to its members.

Duh! ! ! ! ! ; . . .

__________________
Bob Nelson
Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich - Napoléon

donsutherland1

Income taxes are calculated against taxable income and not revenue or sales. As the financial statements kept for tax purposes often differ from those for financial reporting e.g., that's why one finds deferred tax items on the statements for financial reporting, the effective tax rate can be found by dividing the company's tax expense by its income before taxes.

For the first half of 2008, ExxonMobil had:

Income before taxes: $42.398 billion
Income tax expense: $19.828 billion

Effective income tax rate: 46.8%

Kyle2008

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.
_________________________________
Kyle
Carhartt Insulated Gloves investment real estate

bobnelsonfr

This in an excellent definition... aside from the fact that it is about fifty years out of date . .

Nowadays, European Socialists only recommend public ownership in cases where private ownership proves itself abusive, inept, or both... like banks... ; .

__________________
Bob Nelson
Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich - Napoléon