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Economics U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions; Today, the Dow Jones Industrials closed at 11,453.42. That is its lowest closing figure since the index closed ...

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Old 06-26-08, 06:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Today, the Dow Jones Industrials closed at 11,453.42. That is its lowest closing figure since the index closed at 11,396.84 on September 11, 2006. The Dow Jones Industrials is now 19.1% below its peak close of 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007. If one factors in inflation, the Dow is 22.4% below its peak. In fact, if one considers only inflation, inflation's bite would have been equivalent to a drop of some 585 points had stock prices held steady at the figure of the Dow's record close.

If one examines the experience from recent past recessions, the Dow could fall even farther from its present figure before it reaches its bottom.



Given the combination of rising inflation, energy price spike, and credit squeeze, a recession cannot be ruled out sometime from now through 2009. If anything, the Fed's failure to raise interest rates 25 basis points at the last meeting might well have planted the seeds for the need for much tougher monetary policy down the road. Should inflation expectations become unanchored--and the Conference Board's survey should consumers expect inflation to average 7.7% in the June 2008-2009 timeframe--inflation could become more embedded and persistent. Already, there is growing evidence of price pass-through. Then, much tighter monetary policy could be required to reel back inflation expectations and such monetary policy could exacerbate the strains facing what will likely remain a sluggish economy through much of next year.

Given past recessions and the ongoing dissipating housing bubble embedded in a larger inflationary environment, a decline to levels typical with recessions might well be a reasonable possibility before the stock market reaches its bottom. A 20%-30% decline from the October 9 peak would take the Dow Jones Industrials down to 9,915.17-11,331.62. Unless an actual recession unfolds, a bottom in the 10,750-11,250 vicinity might well be a realistic proposition.
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Old 06-26-08, 06:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

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Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
Today, the Dow Jones Industrials closed at 11,453.42. That is its lowest closing figure since the index closed at 11,396.84 on September 11, 2006. The Dow Jones Industrials is now 19.1% below its peak close of 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007. If one factors in inflation, the Dow is 22.4% below its peak. In fact, if one considers only inflation, inflation's bite would have been equivalent to a drop of some 585 points had stock prices held steady at the figure of the Dow's record close.

If one examines the experience from recent past recessions, the Dow could fall even farther from its present figure before it reaches its bottom.



Given the combination of rising inflation, energy price spike, and credit squeeze, a recession cannot be ruled out sometime from now through 2009. If anything, the Fed's failure to raise interest rates 25 basis points at the last meeting might well have planted the seeds for the need for much tougher monetary policy down the road. Should inflation expectations become unanchored--and the Conference Board's survey should consumers expect inflation to average 7.7% in the June 2008-2009 timeframe--inflation could become more embedded and persistent. Already, there is growing evidence of price pass-through. Then, much tighter monetary policy could be required to reel back inflation expectations and such monetary policy could exacerbate the strains facing what will likely remain a sluggish economy through much of next year.

Given past recessions and the ongoing dissipating housing bubble embedded in a larger inflationary environment, a decline to levels typical with recessions might well be a reasonable possibility before the stock market reaches its bottom. A 20%-30% decline from the October 9 peak would take the Dow Jones Industrials down to 9,915.17-11,331.62. Unless an actual recession unfolds, a bottom in the 10,750-11,250 vicinity might well be a realistic proposition.
Sounds like we have "stagflation" doesn't it?

Maybe Bush and some of the conservatives here can explain again how his tax cuts have boosted economic performance and set the stage for stronger sustainable growth, like was being claimed a few years back.

And since that's worked so swell, let's cut taxes more! What the heck. The Govt can always borrow more.
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Old 06-26-08, 10:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Here is my question: If legislation is passed in response to the energy speculation bubble, and energy prices recede a bit, will the market not see a relief as consumers regain capital?
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Old 06-26-08, 11:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

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Here is my question: If legislation is passed in response to the energy speculation bubble, and energy prices recede a bit, will the market not see a relief as consumers regain capital?
There is no assurance that legislation aimed at curbing futures market activity would have such an impact on oil prices. There is even the risk that it could drain liquidity from the market leading to the kind of greater volatility and perhaps price stickiness that can be commonplace in illiquid or shallow markets.

The preliminary Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) findings did not find speculation as a driving force of the run-up in oil prices.



Notice that both net speculative positions and net swaps positions were essentially flat when the biggest run-up in crude oil prices commenced. Also, oil inventory statistics do not show a hoarding of crude oil. In fact, for the most part, such stocks have been gradually declining in recent months and are in or nearing the lower part of their historic range.

The CFTC is conducting further research at present and its next report will be published in September. Barring a change in what it finds, it is entirely possible that supply-demand and a depreciating U.S. dollar are responsible for the biggest part of the change in crude oil prices.

If so, addressing the demand imbalance (2006 and 2007 saw consumption exceed production) and stabilizing the U.S. dollar would probably afford a much better chance at bringing about a decline in crude oil prices. To stabilize the dollar, one would need a continued significant contraction in the trade deficit (unfortunately, crude oil imports impede how far the deficit can decline), fiscal restraint (not likely), coordinated Treasury-international intervention in the foreign exchange market (opposed by the U.S.), or a hike in interest rates (questionable in the near-term even as inflation and inflation expectations mount, in part on account of crude oil prices that a stronger U.S. dollar would temper).

Until energy prices and inflation are addressed, corporate profits may well be squeezed further. Such a development could limit the potential for sustained robust stock market rallies. Should inflation continue to escalate, it is not implausible that an extended period of negative after-tax returns could occur. For example, during the inflationary 1973-81 period, the S&P 500 Index rose 20.0% from 102.09 to 122.55. However, consumer prices more than doubled during that period. As a result, the after-inflation return on the S&P 500 Index was -54.3%.

Finally, on the political front, should investors also begin to conclude a significant capital gains tax hike is possible, that might also inhibit their willingness to purchase securities.
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Old 06-27-08, 09:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

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Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post


There is no assurance that legislation aimed at curbing futures market activity would have such an impact on oil prices. There is even the risk that it could drain liquidity from the market leading to the kind of greater volatility and perhaps price stickiness that can be commonplace in illiquid or shallow markets.

The preliminary Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) findings did not find speculation as a driving force of the run-up in oil prices.



Notice that both net speculative positions and net swaps positions were essentially flat when the biggest run-up in crude oil prices commenced. Also, oil inventory statistics do not show a hoarding of crude oil. In fact, for the most part, such stocks have been gradually declining in recent months and are in or nearing the lower part of their historic range.

The CFTC is conducting further research at present and its next report will be published in September. Barring a change in what it finds, it is entirely possible that supply-demand and a depreciating U.S. dollar are responsible for the biggest part of the change in crude oil prices.

If so, addressing the demand imbalance (2006 and 2007 saw consumption exceed production) and stabilizing the U.S. dollar would probably afford a much better chance at bringing about a decline in crude oil prices. To stabilize the dollar, one would need a continued significant contraction in the trade deficit (unfortunately, crude oil imports impede how far the deficit can decline), fiscal restraint (not likely), coordinated Treasury-international intervention in the foreign exchange market (opposed by the U.S.), or a hike in interest rates (questionable in the near-term even as inflation and inflation expectations mount, in part on account of crude oil prices that a stronger U.S. dollar would temper).

Until energy prices and inflation are addressed, corporate profits may well be squeezed further. Such a development could limit the potential for sustained robust stock market rallies. Should inflation continue to escalate, it is not implausible that an extended period of negative after-tax returns could occur. For example, during the inflationary 1973-81 period, the S&P 500 Index rose 20.0% from 102.09 to 122.55. However, consumer prices more than doubled during that period. As a result, the after-inflation return on the S&P 500 Index was -54.3%.

Finally, on the political front, should investors also begin to conclude a significant capital gains tax hike is possible, that might also inhibit their willingness to purchase securities.
Thanks Don.

IMO most of what we are hearing about speculation is a dodge by big oil proponents to divert attention away from the real failures of energy policy to promote effeciency and alternative energy.
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Old 06-27-08, 11:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Iriemon,

I agree that the chronic failure of the U.S. to develop and implement a credible energy policy has contributed to the situation in which the U.S. finds itself. Had conservation (reduction in demand growth) and research into alternatives (greater range of substitutes) progressed over the past 30 years, the U.S. would likely have had more alternatives. At the same time, the combination of slower demand growth and an increased number of substitutes would likely have tempered the rise in crude oil prices.
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Old 06-27-08, 11:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Further addressing the point that there is no assurance that legislation aimed at curbing futures market activity would be assured to reduce oil prices and that there is the risk that it could drain liquidity from the market leading to the kind of greater volatility and perhaps price stickiness that can be commonplace in illiquid or shallow markets, Fortune published a piece that has relevance.

In that piece on the experience with onions, Fortune explains:

The bulbous root is the only commodity for which futures trading is banned...

And yet even with no traders to blame, the volatility in onion prices makes the swings in oil and corn look tame, reinforcing academics' belief that futures trading diminishes extreme price swings. Since 2006, oil prices have risen 100%, and corn is up 300%. But onion prices soared 400% between October 2006 and April 2007, when weather reduced crops, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, only to crash 96% by March 2008 on overproduction and then rebound 300% by this past April.
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Old 06-27-08, 02:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Quote:
Sounds like we have "stagflation" doesn't it?

Maybe Bush and some of the conservatives here can explain again how his tax cuts have boosted economic performance and set the stage for stronger sustainable growth, like was being claimed a few years back.

And since that's worked so swell, let's cut taxes more! What the heck. The Govt can always borrow more.
Although I am not a Bush supporter, I am supporter of tax cuts, and to assign failure to tax reduction policy based on a poor economy is to misunderstand the nature of statistical analysis. There are a great many factors which must be taken into consideration before hailing tax cuts as a failure given the multitude of variables involved.

The tax cuts could be having a positive effect on the market but other factors such as the dropping dollar, a decrease in personal savings, the rise of gas prices, and globalization could conceivably mask the effects. I'm not saying the tax cuts worked one way or the other, all I'm saying is one cannot draw an accurate conclusion based soley on the current status of the economy.
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Old 06-27-08, 04:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Just a quick update for today's closing prices. The Dow Jones Industrials closed at 11,346.51. That is its lowest closing figure since the index closed at 11,396.84 on September 7, 2006. The Dow Jones Industrials is now 19.9% below its peak close of 14,164.53 on October 9, 2007. If one factors in inflation, the Dow is now 23.1% below its peak.

The S&P 500's close at 1,278.38 is its lowest close since March 17, 2008 when the S&P 500 closed at 1,276.60. The S&P 500 is now down 18.3% from its peak of 1,565.15 from October 9, 2007. Considering inflation, the real value of the S&P 500 is now 21.3% lower than its October 9 close.
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Old 06-30-08, 12:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: U.S. Stocks Tumble: Some Comparisons from Past Recessions

Overnight, stock markets in Japan and Hong Kong were hanging onto modest gains while others in South Korea and China were lower. Gold had eased to around $928 per ounce. U.S. stock index futures were trading somewhat higher. Oil was off to another strong start, trading around $141.79 per barrel at 12:30 am EDT.

Meanwhile, Monday's edition of The New York Times greeted readers with a dreary piece on the recent decline in the world's bourses. The newspaper reported:

As the United States markets edge toward bear territory, losing nearly 20 percent of their value from last fall’s peak, investors might wonder where they can turn for relief.

The gloomy answer: nowhere.


The article continued, noting, "Many of the major markets in Europe and around the world have already entered a bear market... Higher inflation, exploding energy costs, troubled credit markets and worries about an inflationary psychology, it turns out, are global concerns."

Among other developments that could influence trading, two big reports to be issued later today could set the tone for Wall Street.

• Europe's Inflation Report: The European Union is expected to release its year-on-year inflation figure for June today. The consensus forecast is for that figure to have risen from 3.6% to 3.9%. A somewhat smaller increase could perhaps leave the European Central Bank to leave its benchmark interest rate at 4.00% for another month. A figure at or above the consensus could ensure a rate hike to 4.25%. It could also increase financial market concern that inflation is leaving the grasp of the world's major central banks. In turn, that could drive inflation expectations even higher. Such a scenario would be bad for the U.S. dollar, potentially dampen demand for the Treasury's auctions to be held today and Tuesday, and bullish for oil given that oil is priced in dollars.

• The National Association of Purchasing Management will release its data concerning business activity in the Chicago area. The data is forecast to show stagnant to slightly contracting activity. A more robust figure, which is plausible given the recent personal income and consumption data released on Friday, would offer some assurance about the economy's vitality at the present time. However, its inflation data could provide an area of concern, particularly if it points to accelerating or spreading inflation.

Last edited by donsutherland1 : 06-30-08 at 06:51 AM.
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